Bryan McAnulty: Welcome to The Creator's Adventure, where we interview Creator's from around the world, hearing their stories about growing a business. Today I'm talking with somebody who loves copywriting. In fact, so much so that when I met him a few days ago, even his shirt said copy on it. And I'm talking about Neville Medhora.

Neville is a veteran copywriter and course. And has some awesome info to share with us today. Hey everyone. I'm Bryan McAnulty. I'm the founder of Heights Platform. Let's get into it.

Hey everyone. We're here today with Neville Medhora. He is a marketer, copywriter, and the founder of Copywriting Course, an online program that helps entrepreneurs maximize sales with the help of copywriting. Neville, welcome to the show.

Neville Medhora: Thanks for having man. Appreciate it. Great to be here.

Bryan McAnulty: So my first question for you is, what would you say is the biggest thing that either you did or you are doing that has helped you achieve the freedom to do what you enjoy?

Neville Medhora: Uh, great question. I think first and foremost, one of the things that I did that was different than a lot of people when I first started was I did a lot of experiments, not start business. And so let me explain. So in college, I started one of my first businesses and I didn't say I was gonna start a business, so to say.

I'm just like, lemme just try something and see what happens. And one of the things I've noticed, and we're talking about this a little bit before the call, is one of the people reasons people kind of fail or they just never start something. It's cuz they're a bit afraid. And I think in the modern world, people are like, I wanna start a business, but I don't know.

And they think that they have to start a business, start an llc, have a business plan in place, and then start this actual like business thing when in reality you could just do a bunch of experiments as I did, which is like, let me start a blog and see what happens, right? Let's just, uh, just see, maybe it sucks and I kill it.

Who cares? And so I started a bunch of small experiments over time, and then what I would do is whichever experiment was working really well, I'd be like, Well, maybe I should dedicate more time and resources to that. And started doing that. And through that, my career has been, I'm working on something, but then I start the other little side thing and that really takes off.

And then I jump to that. And so that's the way I've done it personally so far. And, and inside of our course, I've told lots of people, I'm like, What do we just start this as an experiment? A playful little experiment that you try for a month and people get that started right away. Whereas if you say start a business, it feels a little bit more official.

You're more attached to it, you're less likely to pivot what you're. So starting small experiments over and over and over. I think that's, that's something that's really helped me. Cool.

Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, I think that's a great point. Um, if it helps anybody out there, um, what I'm doing now with Heights Platform, this is not the first thing I started, um, is the same kind of idea that I, I tried all kinds of different things and it eventually kind of evolved into what I'm doing today, and I think today is the kind of cumulation of everything I've learned from those different pieces.

Neville Medhora: But, um, how many iterations did it take to get there, roughly?

Bryan McAnulty: Um, so I think it was like more of a journey of, I knew I wanted to start a business, um, originally in 2009. That was a web design graphic design studio. Um, which I guess started because I knew print design. So growing up, uh, my dad did these, uh, direct, uh, direct mail advertising.

And so he had the graphics programs on his computer and I was eight years old messing around, drawing rectangles and shapes, learning all how to use it. It actually got to the point that I was so good at it. Um, he'd be out working with someone, he'd give me a call and ask me like a technical question about the software.

Like, Oh, how do you get the color palette back? Or something like that, and I'd answer him. And then the person on the line would be like, Wow, do you have like a special like tech support with this company? And he's like, No, that's my eight year old son. Um, and so I, I kind of already knew all that. I enjoyed all that.

Um, that evolved more into web design. And as I was working on it, I realized that, uh, clients kind of mess a lot of things up for me cuz you have this vision, clients always wanna change it. And I thought like, Well, how can I fully execute like exactly what is our vision? And the answer was like, how can we build our own products?

And then we kind of shifted like 50% of our time spent trying out our own ideas, 50% on clients. Uh, eventually, long story short, that turned into Heights Platform today, which is now our focus.

Neville Medhora: Yeah, I, I think if you asked most successful people how many things they've started first, it's usually not the company that they have, and it's certainly not the company that they have that's successful.

It's usually all these different things along the way, and if you treat those like experiments, it's just like, Oh, you'll start a ton of stuff. If you're like, I wanna learn how to make a blog. And you just go do that and give yourself a time limit. You'll learn so much more from doing this series of experiments rather than trying to start a necessary business.

Now, some people are fine starting businesses, but for a lot of people, I think they're a little bit afraid. And so that's why I say the experiment thing is a great jumping point for that. Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty: Yeah. I like that way of looking at it. Um, yeah, and, and for me, even it was, it wasn't just that, you know, like trying digital products, e-commerce stores, mobile apps, um, and definitely not, not only does that thing validate if it can make money by doing this experiment, but it also proves if you really enjoy it or not.

And I think it's good just for the, the discovery process of like, Hey, actually I really love blogging, or I really love whatever it is that you try.

Neville Medhora: Oh, I mean, we train, we train tons of writers, and there is, like with the copywriting industry, if you type in like how to do copywriting, there's a lot of people online, uh, kind of gurus that will tell you like, this is the great way to make six figures right away.

So people get enchanted by that. And then sometimes they'll land up in my, uh, realm being like, How do I make six figures a day? I'm ready. And I'm like, Whoa. Hold, hold on, hold on. There , uh, you gotta actually, uh, know what you're doing over. And so, uh, uh, it's, it's kind of funny how many people we get like that.

And one of the things I have to tell these people is that you are starting a business over here. You are starting a freelance business if you're going to start copywriting. And so no matter what you do in life, it's gonna have to be a slow buildup. And so I think for a lot of people, just starting small is going to be a huge thing.

And it sounded like you started small and built your way up into your actual product. Um, so that's really cool to. Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, definitely. And, uh, yeah, definitely. I know you've talked about this, um, in other things, but figuring out how you yourself can get small wins early on that motivate you to keep going and if you're in the business of online courses, how you can get that for your customers or your students.

Um, so, but actually since I've heard you talk about this, I've seen things about this. Um, can you give maybe an example of like, Things where, uh, you had that same kind of practice?

Neville Medhora: The practice of just like starting small and going bigger?

Bryan McAnulty: Yeah. Or like helping, even helping people get small wins early on.

Like I guess the importance of that.

Neville Medhora: Yeah. So, so what I always tell them is like, yeah, so one of the things I always tell people is like, work backwards. It's like a framework I use all the time. And so when people say, Well, I want to start an online course, I'm like, Cool. Let's work backwards though. What do you really want?

Like what would be a win here? Let's, let's put some numbers on this. Okay, so let's, let's track it cuz then, you know, if you start an online course but never launch it, does that count? Or if you start an online course to get two subscribers, does that count? Or is it a money goal? So usually from a lot of these experiments that say, What do I want?

What do I, what do I want to happen here? So first of all, any of these experiments, any smarting, small stuff. First of all, you wanna learn something, you just wanna learn the process. Um, I think you wanna learn, just like you said, what you don't like doing. It's very easy to figure out what you don't like doing versus what you like doing.

So if you start an online course, And start writing. Maybe you realize, I really hate writing. I thought I would like it and I don't. So that's very valuable to learn. So I'd say working backwards for those types of things. So if I start an online course, I say, what would success be? So, my very first online course I released, uh, uh, years ago.

I was like, if 10 people buy this, that I would consider that a success because I learned how to sell a digital product, deliver a digital product, create a digital product, and sell everything. I learned all those things. So if I make 10 sales at 50 bucks a piece or whatever it was, uh, I'll make 500 bucks, which I'll be satisfied with, and I'll learn all these skills, and then I can maybe parlay that into something else.

And so I worked backwards into those types of things. So I said, Here's what the success is, and then when it surpassed it, I was like, Maybe this is a sign that this is something that can be further looked at, looked at. And so I always work backwards into those types of things whenever I'm looking at a goal.

So even whenever I'm trying to experiment, I'm like, Like, so right now I'm trying to grow my Twitter larger, and so I've worked backwards thinking like, what do I want out of a larger Twitter audience? It's not just a bigger number on that Twitter handle, which of course it's part of it, but at the same time what it is, is I realized a, a while ago, I wanted to be on more podcasts and get more distribution.

And it was difficult to just find people's emails and cold email them all day long, asking to be on their podcast. Instead, I said, Well, what if, what I've, I've reached out one time on Twitter to someone and and instantly resulted in a podcast booking. So I thought, Huh, if I could build my social following, that would give me a little bit more credibility and people would be more likely to have me on their podcast.

So I worked backwards on what do I want out of this? That I'm gonna spend all this time on. Um, cuz you do have to work on these things and there's only so much time you can work on stuff. So that's, that's how I've come up with, uh, that's how I like work backwards and try to get little successes here and there by working backwards and saying, Well, if I'm trying to five x my audience, how am I first going to double it?

How am I first go triple it, et cetera, and kind of work backwards into those types of things. So I put all these systems in place, tweeting every day, all that kind of stuff that will lead me to the ultimate goal that.

Bryan McAnulty: Cool. I like that. I think that's a good, uh, yeah. Good, good process. Good way to look at it, because it also gives you that goal ahead of time.

So if you just say, I, I wanna launch my course, I wanna launch my product. That's not really quite clear enough of a goal because you, you may not get there then. So if you can put some kind of reason behind, Um, like being that like you want to launch it and just, the goal is it just has to launch. If that's really all it is, then that's, that's fine.

That's good. If the goal is get the 10 customers, whatever it is, then you have something that you can wake up and you can figure out how am I gonna get there? Rather than I hope that I'm gonna, I'm gonna work on my course today. I'm gonna work on my product today. And that may then just keep going forever.

Neville Medhora: Well, it really actually helps your goal because imagine, let's say someone says, I wanna launch a course. Well, I say, Well, how many do you wanna sell? And they go, Well, that's a good question. I already thought about it. How do I approach that? I'm like, Well, I mean, you kind of pull it outta your ass. Really?

This is 10, 100. What's, What's your expectation here? And the good thing is, is once you figure out that number, it's easier to figure out what to do. So for example, if I want to sell 10 copies of a course, Um, about different frameworks, like knowledge frameworks or something? Well, I could say I could sell them to my friends and family, and that'll be 10.

Right? So I think, Huh. That's where I'll start. Whereas if I said I wanna sell a thousand of them. Okay, now that means I'm gonna have to have a much, much larger audience. And who has that audience I can get in front of? Is there, is there any way I can get in front of that audience? Do I have to build that audience?

Cause if I wanna sell a thousand copies of something, I might have to have a very loyal audience of 10,000 or more, right? Maybe only 1% of the audience will buy. So maybe to sell thousand or something. I need a hundred thousand people following me on a social media platform. So then I have to say, how do I work backwards to get.

And how long does that usually take? Who else has done it? So by working backwards, I can see pretty much exactly what I need to do, depending on my expectations. Or maybe I'll say, You know what, maybe a thousand was a little too much. I, I think this was harder than I realized. Maybe I'll have to spend two years building this audience.

Right. But at least you'll learn those types of things by working backwards rather than just saying, I'm gonna launch a course. And you have some vague target in mind, Some vague date. Yep. And those people generally don't actually complete it.

Bryan McAnulty: As I was mentioning really quick with you kind of before we started recording here, like we've noticed ourselves of being able to have the opportunity to see thousands of courses.

The number one reason people fail is that they just don't launch the course. And so I was telling you like I can find you a perfect example of somebody with horrible branding or no branding and they're successful of somebody who their content is really not explained that well, but they're still getting people to buy.

Or somebody who maybe the design is great, maybe the content is great, but they're not great at marketing yet, but they're still getting sales and ultimately you're, you're not gonna get sales if you can't launch it. So, uh, the procrastination and just not getting it out there is, uh, biggest

Neville Medhora: and one thing I think to learn over launching a lot of courses, for example, which are just like different products that you're. Is, you'll notice one totally takes off. So I've done maybe 15 plus and then have helped create 15 to 20 more. And what I notice is there are some that you think are really cool.

Let me tell you. So I'm, I'm part of this company called appo. We released a lot of digital products over the years and the copywriting one that turned into copywriting course, my full-time, uh, company right now. One of the things that that really resonated was the reason that that was started was because of the demand for people reading our emails and.

I know you're trying to sell us something every day. Abio was like a Groupon marketplace, but for software, it's like, But I always wanna open your emails. And they'd be like, Neville, how do you do that? And I'm like, Well, it's this thing called copywriting. And they're like, Can you explain more? And so I'd explain it to them over email and it would take forever, and they wouldn't get it.

And I'd be like, You know, I, I should probably like talk about this on a video and sell it to them because they want it and I think it'll really help them. And so cooperating course was born out of that many people, just tons and tons of people asking. Uh, how we're writing our emails, and so it, that one really, uh, was what did really well.

Then I remember we did one called the Sumo Diet course, and at the time I was trying to get in better shape and I noticed that when I was in better shape, . I had more energy and more brain power, which meant I could do more work. And so I thought, Wow, every entrepreneur should have this. And so I thought that that's what people, you know, should do.

I never really asked anyone, is this an interesting product to buy? And it was my biggest flop ever. It just, just no one wanted it. People maybe didn't want health advice from me. That wasn't what I was known. Or it's just like too left field for them. And so I think when you launch a bunch of courses, I think you'll also notice a very specific thing, which is like, what problem are you solving for people?

Right? So a lot of people will make a course. They're like, I'm gonna make a course where it teaches you how to knit sweaters for squirrels. And it's like no one has that problem, right? , no one's like really clamoring for that inform. So I think what happens is where people go wrong with courses is people get this idea that I'm gonna make a course about XYZ squirrels, knit knitting sweaters, whatever.

And the problem is no one asks them for that. No one's looking for that. No one's coming to them being like, Please tell me how to do this. And so you start seeing which courses will do well on it. You can almost. Which course will do well if you, if you start doing it well enough times by, by customer demand.

And so I, that's why I think like launching courses sometimes I've seen people just languish, uh, spending all the time on the tech, uh, spending too much time learning about video recording, when in reality they could just give you like a small a, a one hour recorded presentation. And a spreadsheet that they, that they use to do X, y, z.

I've seen that happen many times too, where someone will make long video courses and they'll flop and then they put out a small little $10 product and that does extremely well. Yeah. Yeah. I think those a great points will definitely help you get to the right thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty: Those are great points. What I would add to that is, To not be necessarily afraid at the same time that you have to pick something that everyone's saying, Oh, this is the the profitable thing, or whatever.

So like on one hand it's good, you don't have to pick something so unique that nobody's doing it. It's fine to pick something that somebody else is doing, but you also don't have to go to the extreme of say like, Well, I'm just gonna do this because that's what everybody says is profitable. Because we've also seen courses where like you might not expect that there's demand just from hearing about it, but then the person launches it and is so successful with it.

And so I think the, the real takeaway is just to make sure that you validate something and see like, Hey, does my audience want this?

Neville Medhora: Exactly. Yeah. And I think there's some easy ways to do that, to notify, like, what do people ask you for all. . Right. Um, so when you were eight years old, learning those data cad, those visualization programs, that seemed to be the universe going, Wow, Brian, you're, you're onto something.

You, you know how to do this. These should do more like this. Um, the other thing is, what have people paid you for in the past? Right. I'm always surprised by how many times people come to me saying like, I'd like to develop my own copywriting system. And I'm like, Have you ever done any copywriting? They're like, And I'm like, Well, you're not like the person that's representative of this that has had success in it.

So I'm not sure people will buy this from you quite as much. Um, but then they tell me that they have like a CPA and they know how to do accounting specifically for startups in the crypto area or something along those lines. I'm like, well, Th that's something that people pay you for all the time.

Perhaps something along those lines would do really well with the people that you know in your audience. And so, and so, that's just an interesting way, just kind of two things to look at. Uh, what do people ask you about all the time for your help, and what do people pay you for already? That's probably along the lines of where you should put a course out.

Bryan McAnulty: Cool. Yeah, I like. So I wanna talk a little bit more about, uh, copywriting now. Um, so I met you actually last week, uh, downtown, here in Austin, and I think your shirt said copy. Um, so I know you're really, you're really into copywriting. Uh, could you tell me like maybe what do you love most about copywriting?

Neville Medhora: I think copywriting is the lowest effort, but highest output marketing activity you could do. So for example, if you have a homepage and your goal is to get people to sign up on the homepage and it. Sign up to our product and no one puts their email inside. Um, that's bad. So with copywriting, without changing the structure of the page, without changing the layout, the buttons, the technical side of it at all, I can change that headline to say.

Get a free sample. Get a seven day free trial of our software. Enter your email. Now, a bunch of people are interested in entering their email, so the only thing that we changed on that page was just the copy. That's it. That's all we changed, and that could have a complete different transformation on that homepage.

Now, imagine you apply a little bit of that copywriting magic and sprinkle it on your home. But then you also sprinkle it on your cold emails that you're reaching out to customers with. You also apply it to all your social media outreach. You also apply it to your about page. You also apply it to your product page, your sales page, and your newsletter.

So imagine that you increase the effectiveness of all of those, Let's say 10%. Oftentimes it's far more than that, but it's like 10% better on this page, 10% better on that page, 10% better retention on your. You can imagine that these things start compounding and can massively change the output of everything.

So that's why when I think people learn copywriting, they can apply it to anything. So instead of saying, I'm gonna send this really long email to someone and, and hope and pray that they that, that they open with copyrighting. You go back to all the principles and psych psychological hacks you've learned and said, Actually a long email in this case would be very, I should send something very short and to the point and see if they're interested in the first place.

And that guiding principle will make your email much better and a higher response rate, therefore more clients, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So that, that's why I like it's the lowest effort, yet highest resulting marketing activity you can do. Awesome. Can you share

Bryan McAnulty: maybe some example that comes to mind of how, uh, copywriting affected, uh, something in your business, someone you worked with, um, to help them get more visibility, more sales.

Neville Medhora: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, my own example for, we talked about App Sumo a couple times over here coming out part of, and one of the things we did was, uh, it was being built and it had about 50,000 subscribers, which is pretty respectable and it was sending out these deals. But the problem is it was say buy grasshopper.com.

Um, 50% off, that's it. And it would actually sell to some degree. And I told the, the founder, I was just like, What if we start putting this copywriting stuff on it? And what happened was I said, You know, just saying, Here's a deal on this company you may or may not know is not very good. We have to show them why it's good.

And what grasshopper.com did at the time was make a phone tree. So if you had a customer service, It would, it would put like hold music and say, Which department do you want to go to? And it'd say, say the shipping department and it could forward it to your cell phone or wherever you want. So it could make a one person company look like a big company.

So whether you had a small e-commerce company like I did at the time, , it made it look like your customer service line was a real thing, not just me picking up my cell phone, right? Uh, but this is also useful for lawyers, for dental offices, for all sorts of different things where it creates a phone tree.

And so I showed that. I said, Hey, I have a small e-commerce company. Here's how I make it look big. And also give me a little more time to prepare for a customer's call. , um, by making them go through a phone tree. And so I showed that and it became the best selling offer ever. And, and it was because we explained the product, the different use cases, that it could be used in the medical field, that it could be used for lawyers, any one person, company, any solopreneur can use this to, to look much larger and divert the calls to the right place.

And so, because we showed how to make your own company bigger and better, more people bought the. And so, So that's how copywriting changed it. So copywriting, we were still sending the same email, we're using the same email service. We didn't change the email template. All that was changed was those words and letters and pictures on a page.

That's it. That was the only thing. And so we'd split test those different emails. One saying, Buy Grasshopper, 50% off versus. Let me show you how to make a small person company, a one person company into looking like it's a big company and then, and then people like, Whoa, I could do that on my own. And then they would buy it and at the end we'd say, By the way, we have 50% off.

And they'd be like, Of course, I'm already sold. . And so that's what copywriting is. And I love with copywriting, you can almost create something from nothing. Quincy Jones always called music making a divine art where you take nothing and you put notes and sounds in the right order, and now you have a patent to bolt asset like Michael Jackson thriller that you can sell for the rest of all time.

He called that a divine art. And so I equate copywriting to that where it's just like you take a blank. You could create something from it, you could create an asset from it. You could create a sales, you could get people to do things all by the words, just typed on a page, which is pretty remarkable to me.

Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, definitely. Um, so yeah, that makes me think. One of the things that we tell Course Creator's especially. That if you do anything, um, even before you launch your course, you should really have this nailed down of focusing on figuring out what is the result that you wanna provide and making sure that is really clear on any landing pages, any marketing, anything like that, because that's what people are gonna ultimately buy from you.

They don't want your course, they don't want to just learn something, They want the end result. And so making sure you're really clear at communicating that, um, I think is super important. Can you share,

Neville Medhora: You are selling a transformation, not a course.

Bryan McAnulty: Exactly, exactly. So that that's what the person wants to buy from you, um, that change that you're creating for them.

So can you share some tips, um, maybe specifically for course Creator's or coaches out there where they could maybe use copy in a way to increase their sales?

Neville Medhora: Yeah, so basically you go through all the people you've helped in your real life, Like preferably, if you've been doing consulting or something for a while, I think you're primed to release a course.

So if you're doing consulting, what have people paid you the most money for? Right? So some people think it's just like, So for me it's kind of funny because you'd think that when people hire me for consulting, it's just for writing. But a lot of times it's kind of like just overall. Right. Um, sometimes it's like creating guiding principles, and so I always take that into note, like, what are they actually paying me for?

Like, what am I doing for them? That's one way to look at it. And then also it's like, what is the thing that people really want from this? So, do people want to learn copywriting? Not really. They want a successful business, right? They want people to land at their homepage and sign up for their product, right?

So what's the fastest way to get. The other thing is what, what are they? What are they really after? A lot of times it is money with a business, right? But a lot of times it's respect and reach and getting their message out there. And so a lot of times when people hire us for social media stuff, our goal isn't to write, you know, like the prettiest copy or anything.

It's like how can we get copy that makes people follow? , Right? And so, So that's what you have to think, like what is the end result that that person really wants? So for Heights Platform, it's like you do online course creation software, but what, Let me ask you, what are people actually coming to you for?

Bryan McAnulty: Oh, I would say it's our focus on helping students get results and helping the creator just do what they enjoy so that way they can teach in the best way without having to become a instructional designer or something like.

Neville Medhora: Without doing all the tech stuff. Yeah, yeah. Like you amplify your message to the world, we'll handle all the tech junk.

It'll be super easy. You don't have to really learn anything. That's the ultimate thing. And so I always try to think of like what they're really, really looking for. And so it's kind of funny. It's like the reason why if you go on TikTok or Instagram, scroll, some of these things, you'll see here's how you make a million dollars.

The reason that that is appealing is because that's what people really want. They want the money. A lot of times they, they'll just want the money. They, they're like, How can I get the most money with the minimal effort? Right? In fact, that was the old Gary Halbert title of a book, Maximum Money for Minimum Effort.

Remember Thinking that is the perfect title. Cause that's what everyone really wants, . And so, so you have to think like, do they really want copywriting or what are they, What are they really looking for? Right? How to amplify their message online, How to become famous. What, what do they want? And so I would just say, what is the end goal that people want?

Let me give you an example of a small product that, uh, someone on our course was asking about this. They were thinking of doing a course, and he was talking to me on our office hours. Every Thursday we hop on a call and just chat with people live, and he was like, I wanna sell this thing. I have an. . And um, one of the things we recently started doing was, uh, uh, compensation packages.

A lot of people had trouble with this and so I just started offering this as a free service. And this is the thing they ended up hiring us over and over for. And I was like, Wait, so maybe there's something to that. People keep hiring you and paying you a lot of money for that compensation package thing.

He said, Yeah, I basically, for my own company, I developed this spreadsheet to make a really good compensation package. He explained why everyone else does 'em bad and his was really. And I was like, Wait, what's the spreadsheet? He's like, Oh, I called it the World's Greatest Compensation Package. I'm like, That's probably the product.

That's the product name. So called it the world's Greatest Compensation, uh, calculator or something like that. Sold it through just one of these platforms. We could just sell a simple digital product and literally sold a 20 minute video, like a screen capture video on Loom, on how to use this and a, a spreadsheet, a Google spreadsheet that you could just copy and.

And, and that was the product. And he sold it for a hundred bucks each, and he sold three of them. The first week he put it out and bar all he did was write a LinkedIn post about it. And then every week he sold more and more and more, and it got more and more popular. And the thing is, a lot of the people that he was talking to really just wanted to enter some numbers about their compensation structure for their sales.

And just get told what to do that they didn't wanna learn about it or anything. And this spreadsheet that he had in this video offered just, Here's what you put in and here's what you get out. And that just really hit the nail on the head. So his $100 product was literally a like MP four file that you downloaded in a zip file and a a Google spreadsheet.

That was it. And so that was getting directly at what people wanted rather than. , should I send them a whole course on compensation or what? Which they did not really want. They just wanted to enter the numbers and get it done with.

Bryan McAnulty: Yeah. I like this point a real lot, how you mentioned that. The customer is not interested in learning about the same thing.

They just want the result from that. So I think that this is something that Creator's can really consider, like, um, like if it's more of like an art course, a music course or something like that, maybe it's a little bit different. But there are gonna be courses out there where what you're teaching, the person who doesn't have your customer, doesn't have that same passion for it as you do and want to learn it in the same way.

But there's value in what you have to teach them. And so there's a different reason of why they actually wanna purchase that. Maybe that's in this case, the uping to improve their business. Uh, something like that. So I think that's a great point.

Neville Medhora: Yeah. And then also another thing that I think, we'll, that some course Creator's can do, and you're seeing this more now, I think within a few years, um, every course will have some sort of community aspect.

Mm-hmm. , so a lot of times they're buying access to you. So when people buy my stuff, a lot of times they're, they're saying, Well, I don't really wanna use all the other stuff. I just want access to the office hours. I could talk to Neville for 15 minutes and we, you know, talk about a problem and get it done real quick.

And so a lot of times people will be, uh, paying for that access to. The actual person that he could talk to. And I think that's a valuable part of the community experience. And the good part is it's, it almost reminds me of office hours inside college. Remember I was in this class with 300 people and I would be the only one that shows up to office hours with the professor.

And for that reason, like I'd show up, I have a full hour of time with the professor. So of course I would like Ace the class cuz like, I talk to the guy, he kind of tell you little insider things here, but there's 300 people that never really showed up and was, I was curious about that. So similarly with office hours, there's, there's, you know, hu like a thousand people inside the course and fortunately only a few show up, maybe 20 will show up for office hours and only eight will ask questions.

Right each time. So that's one of the benefits. Uh, you could do this at scale with people and it's kind of cool because some people will show up every single time, uh, for office hours or watch the replays, but they don't actually ever ask questions. And I've called some of them before and said, Well, why are you doing this?

And they said, Well, I wanna learn from other people and I really love watching you give advice to these people. And I'm learning from each. So that's a big part of the course experience too. These office hours are access to you or be able to message other members or get feedback on something is, is really cool.

Bryan McAnulty: Yeah. All right. I wanna dive into a couple of these points here. So, uh, first of all, like, kind of tying this together actually as an example of what you were just talking about. Um, so I had the opportunity recently to meet a, uh, co-founder of Click Up, uh, Chris, and, uh mm-hmm. . It was a similar situation where there was a couple other people there.

But, um, there weren't as many people as I expected that would be talking with him. So I got to talk with him for like an hour and ask him all these questions about how they grew their business and everything. And, uh, going way back to what we talked about in the beginning of this interview is the same idea of figuring out how to work backwards.

So like they, they are where an ideal picture of where I might want to be. So I knew that there were certain things I had to do more of. To be able to get to that point. But where, what I needed to discover, I guess, was what, what do I have to focus on the most? Like, what do I really need to do more of with my time to be able to get closer to them?

I think one of the, the biggest insights out there, um, if this helps anyone else, uh, they said that blogging was huge for them. They said every day they'd be blogging. They had, everybody from the company had the right blogs and uh, and they really focused. And so like, but that was super valuable to me and other people could've, could've been involved in, in asking him more at that time.

But, um, you, you would think there would be more than there, there was. So that comes back to your community point, that it's, it's more scalable than people think to be able to run a community and say like, Oh, well I don't know if, uh, I'm gonna launch this course and have this community. Can I really handle a thousand people being in it?

Am I gonna be able to still like, provide value to them? Like, first of all, I would say if it grows so big that you can't do it anymore and you need to hire help, that's still a great thing. Right? You're a great problem. Yeah, great problem to have. So, um, but yeah, definitely like since Heights was started, since I started working on it actually, and like 2015 community was always something I believed was a really big part of it.

Um, so that was always something like we had a built in community feature. Um, like as soon as I started developing it, that was one of the first things. Because at the time, like,

Neville Medhora: I think you're on the right path because I've done, I've been doing courses since like maybe 2011 back and, and keeping in mind back in the day, maybe things like YouTube and podcasts were not quite what they are now.

Mm-hmm. , YouTube was almost more like a free video host for small videos. Like Yeah. Now it's like its own thing and you could find. A a lot of information on it. And so what's happened is over time courses have had to add more value. You can't just sell a set of videos and just say, Hey, here, learn on your own.

That that does exist and that is a big part of it. However, there's all these other things you can add. So I went full community this year. Actually, we don't even have a WordPress blog anymore. Um, I've used WordPress, you know, for 20 plus years, and I fully moved off WordPress. Uh, and the reason was it wasn't part of the community.

Um, so if you think about like a Facebook group or Facebook or social media like Twitter, any, any of those types of things, what happens is as you put out a piece of content, People see, it shows up in feeds and people comment on it. And that inherent, that commenting, that native commenting is an important part of community.

It's like going back and forth and if someone comments enough, you start to know who they are. You start to respect their ideas. You comment back and forth. You have discussions or they disagree with something. You say, Well, what about this? Think, Oh, I never thought about that. And you think, Oh, I learned something from them.

That's where I think community is, is valuable. It's just like imagine a group full of people for you have friends, you're bouncing ideas back and forth, and you're this. It's a bad idea. This one's a good idea. Then you put them together, make a new idea. That's what it's all about. And I don't think there's that much community software out there that's very good.

I think you see some little plugins that try to make community out of that, but haven't seen much good software. That's why I think community's gonna become really big in the next two years is because there's more softwares like your. Coming out that make it easy, I think before. So for example, uh, with our copywriting community, we can't use a Facebook group.

And the reason is people are posting 20 page sales pages inside of our forum, right? Yep. And that, that's literally not possible. You can't even do inline images. You can't put text, image text on, on a Facebook group post. So, We, we just, the, the technology just wasn't proper for us. And so we had to make a customized forum, a very hu, heavily customized forum with developers and everything.

And that is not easy. That's not something people have the technical chops to do. And even with me, I have to hire people that are better than me to help make it. And so for that reason, I think that's why community hasn't been done very well, is just like, there's not the technical software, but I, I can see, I can see the, the tides rising.

There are more and more softwares that are like, we need to, I. Commenting and simple profiles and things like that, um, much better. So much like you're doing right now. So I think in two years, community's gonna be so much stronger because the tools to make it easy will be there. And currently they're still being developed.

Bryan McAnulty: Definitely. And, um, if it helps anybody out there who's like just getting started now, wondering about this like whole world of like what they should offer in their program, their course. Also being maybe potentially intimidated in figuring out how can I price it when there's these other courses online that are so cheap?

Um, I want to go back to like how you mentioned that like, nowadays, like all the information you can find on YouTube and things like that, and I really believe that like, some of the, like lower course, lower priced course platforms, the, the lower, like lower priced courses out there, like things that are under $50.

I'm talking in general, like in general, that's not really giving you much more value as the customer. Other than like, it's basically a YouTube playlist, like you're putting the information in order for the. But there's a reason why it is the price that it's at, and the value really comes in when you add these other things onto it.

And as you said, like the community, the potential to engage with you, even just for a short time, that just exponentially increases the value that somebody can get from it. So if you're thinking about how you can price your course and package it, I'd encourage you, it doesn't have to have the community immediately.

But figuring out a way that you could tie that in can really add a lot of value to what you have to do.

Neville Medhora: Yeah, I mean, that, that was a, that was a thing that I figured out with our, We, when we added a community, one of the things I realized was people go through the training and then email me. Like, they were just like, actually email me and say, Hey, what do you think of this?

And I'd say, Well, uh, it, it's hard to, for me to give you feedback. Email individually. That that's, that's a lot. Um, but what happened was I said, Well, what if I add a community component? Because I would give some people feedback, but it would be a shame that only they saw it. I was like, What if other people could see this inside the, the course?

And so when we added a community, I would give people, people would like post something, say, What do you think of this cold email? And I would say, You know what, I'm just gonna rewrite it so you can see what it would look like if I rewrote it. And they'd be like, Wow, that's amazing. Then they'd go use that.

So one, I just kind of rewrote something for them. But then what happened with community is since there's a thread of it, other people can reference that. They could say, Oh, that's so he moved that, took that out, Put that image in. Right? And so you can see what I did. And so instead of just like these one-offs over email, and they would die and everyone forget about them after.

Um, that content kind of lived on, it's almost like we're creating tons of blog posts per day Exactly. Inside of our community. And then we had to, then I had to hire on writers cause I couldn't handle all the work. And so then it got bigger and bigger like that. But, but that, that community aspect is very powerful and I think it's going to, Um, replace kind of like individual consulting sometimes say like, anyone can come and get like consulting or help from me.

And just like we both said, those examples of the office hours, most people don't ask things. It's almost like a gym membership where it's like, you know, 1% of the people actually show up all the time and most of the people don't. And that's why the economics work out really well with the community cuz some people require a lot of attention.

Some people require absolutely. . Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty: Yeah. And also like people are getting value in different ways. So like what you said, some people, they're, they're showing something and they're getting that, that direct feedback. Others, it's already valuable enough for them to just see that and read what you helped somebody else with.

And so even just being more passive, it's still really valuable to those people. Um, inside Heights, actually, besides our like community feature itself, we have a features called project. The way that that works is after you've completed the course, then you can go and post in the project. And so I think that sounds kind of like how you're using your community.

So like in a copywriting example, like the project would be like write your, your cold email and then they write it out and say, Hey, here's my, uh, here's my copy. This is what I wrote for my email. Then other students can go and write emails as well. They can kind of vote on it like Reddit style, and then they can comment on it and then you can comment on it and say like, Hey, I would tweak this or that.

And. Beyond everything that you mentioned. Why is so powerful about this? I think I like to think of it almost like a video game. So for anyone out there who's, who's played video games, especially like a lot of the games nowadays, they're really focused on like the psychology of how can they keep you around.

and with an online course, you're kind of done the course and then the value ends, right? But with this projects feature, with a community feature, things like that, it's a way that you can keep the value going for all of your students, both increasing the value of your new students and keeping it going for the past students.

So what I mean by that is they're getting this continued value from being able to interact with each other, being able to interact with you. But also you start to get these situations where maybe there's somebody who's really, really a fan of your whole program. They really like dove into it. They've learned so much, and now they can go and help other newer people in your community for you.

So it's, it's kinda like this constant feedback. That's exactly what I'm talking.

Neville Medhora: Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's kind of funny, there's not a lot of platforms that do stuff like that right now. A lot of platforms just say, Here's a bunch of videos, which is like, it's kinda like YouTube. It's like a YouTube playlist.

That's it. Mm-hmm. . But then there has to be this other interactive community component where people say, Hey, I wanna rewrite this cold email. And then what do you think of it? And then other students can jump in and see what they did and say, Hey. I'll try my hand at this. Yeah, that's exactly what we do.

And like I said, the bad part is that we have to like kind of custom build a lot of this stuff ourselves there. It's, it's not something you just really get outta the box. It sounds like this is outta the box, but, uh, a lot of places don't have that. So I think it's going to be much more like school. So if you think about it, let's say you, uh, you go to your English class and they.

Hey, this is how you write something. They don't just say that and that's it. They, they make you take a test or they make you write a paper. They make you do an assignment, right? And that's how it solidifies in your head. And so if there's a chemistry class and they say, If you put these two chemicals together, it'll glow.

Well, what they do is they get the beakers out and you make it together and they glows. And you're like, Oh, now I, Your brain starts connecting the dots. So similarly when you give people an assignment to do or a quiz or some kind of interactive, and have some sort of interaction to correct them on it.

That's how learning takes place, not just by watching me write online or listen to me talk about writing. It's actually having you do it and then me giving you some feedback on it and improving each time, and that's, that's 100% how learning happens. So I'm glad all these, uh, platforms are doing more community now.

Bryan McAnulty: Yeah. Definit. So I wanna go back to one other thing you talked about, about having calls with customers. Um, I think you mentioned mm-hmm. of getting some feedback from, uh, past customers. Can you explain a little bit more of like why you do that and, and how this helped you improve your business? Cause I think some people are a little bit apprehensive, think like, Oh, I wanna have this business so I'm not gonna be on the phone.

And um, and it's not that you're always on the phone, but I think, I think there is value at it. If you could explain.

Neville Medhora: Yeah. And so what happens is I think a lot of business owners get away with it once they get, uh, successful, right? Mm-hmm. , because in the beginning a lot of people say, I need get on the phone and talk to people about their problems so I could develop a product.

Then you have a product that's successful and you say, Well, I, I don't have to call pro people. Now we have other things to do. And so I've actually told a bunch of my friends that I've been calling people more often and I made a little system for it. It's quite simple and I'll explain it, and um, and a lot of my friends have like large.

Have said I need to do this more because this is, this is actually detrimental that the founder is not doing this. And what it is, is basically, uh, I do it for an hour every Wednesday and every Friday. I've been doing it for the last month or so, and there's about four to five calls per roughly hour. And, and what I do, As I have a list of questions I'll ask them, but sometimes I'll just talk off the top of my head cuz each call goes very different and I put it out in one of our newsletters saying, Hey, I'd love to chat whether you've brought the copywriting course or not.

I don't really care. To me, I want to interview past customers that I've bought and then stop paying. I wanna interview current customers that are in the course and I wanna interview future customers, me, people who have not bought yet. So really, whoever signs up to buy I, I don't care. I will talk to them.

Right. One of the things I'll get on the phone and let's say I'm talking to you and I'll say, Hey Brian, how's it going? I'll just call him over the phone, just simple phone call, not video. And I'll say, Uh, did you ever buy the copying course? And you, you're like, Yeah, I bought it a long time ago. And, uh, you know, I, I got some stuff out of it, but don't need it anymore.

And over here, I basically get the idea. I start asking them like, what they really bought it for. So I'm like, What did, what did you buy it for? Like, what were you hoping to get out of it? They're like, Well, I was starting a small business and I didn't. How to send out email marketing. So I wanted to learn about email marketing, and so I write little notes out for each different call about what people liked about it, what they didn't like about it, um, other solutions they've used.

Right. Did you buy any other copywriting courses? Um, and, and then ultimately the end result, like, what do you want outta this? So, and that changes over the years. So in the beginning, I think a lot of. Uh, they wanted to create courses. They wanted just put out blogs. And now what I'm noticing is more people are rather, instead of putting out a blog, they'd rather get popular on their social media site.

Hm. Right. That's, that's something interesting. Or they'd, They'd like to start sending out an email newsletter. There's a lot more email newsletters going out. So I've noticed that trend rising because they make all these customer calls. And the other thing that's super valuable for myself, and I'm sure you do this too, because you build a product, is you start thinking of new features for your product and you think, Wow, that would be really cool in reality.

Most customers don't care about something that you think is really cool. They just, they just want a result. So I remember, like, we put this chat module inside the community and I worked on it a bit. There were some technical issues with it, and so we finally got it running and, uh, yes, people didn't care.

Just, just people didn't really care. And I ask people this on the calls, I'm like, I added a chat module. And they're like, Cool. Like, what do you do with it? And I was like, Um, you could, you could chat. That's it. , they're like about, Holy crap. I really didn't have like a use case for this. Like there were like no one asked for a chat module, like no one at all ever.

And so I remember thinking like this feature was just for me because I thought it was cool. And then even after a while of having it up, I didn't use it. And I was like, Oh yeah, there's no purpose to this. There's zero purpose. This isn't solving a problem. This is just adding crap onto the course that people don't care about.

And so I killed it. I, I just, I just removed it. I'm like, until I have some like actual use case for this, this doesn't need to be here. And then what I talked about to people more that was more exciting was this dumb thing. They were like, you know, I'm part of the course, but I always forget to log in and I'm, I'm busy.

And I like that you send me like a weekly newsletter, you know, just your free weekly newsletter. What if you just sent me the course content like that? I was like, So you just want like, instead of a module inside, just send it to you via email? They're like, Yeah, that would be a lot, like a big help. And I was like, That's so easy to do , and, and like this, this chat thing was way harder and more technical and we spent all this time.

Sending course modules out as drip emails every week is stupid simple, in fact, so boring that it like, it doesn't even seem like a new feature yet. Every time I told people that they got excited about that, they're like, Yeah, I love your weekly newsletter. What if like the day after you sent, like, because I'm paying for the course, you send me the information that I should learn and tell me in order.

And I was like, Holy crap. Everyone liked that idea, but no one liked my chat module idea. No one cared. And so that's, that's the benefit that you could save tons of time and effort and development. By just asking people what they really want, and in reality, the answer might be right in front of your face.

I mean, all we have to do is copy and paste those things into an email and send it as a drip email. That's, that's extremely simple. But believe it or not, that little feature everyone got really excited about it reminds you of a story, email, email on must told a long time ago about PayPal. That PayPal did all these different financial instruments and crazy complex things, and then one.

Someone was like, Yeah, can, can we just send money to an email address? And he was like, Yeah, that's like stupid simple to make. And they added that and everyone just started using that. That's what they became known for. You send money to an email address, but like all this crazy other stuff they built, like no one cared about.

That dumb little thing that he said took five minutes to program was, uh, the main feature that everyone liked. And so I think it's very important that like, I'm spending an hour on a Wednesday and a Friday. It's not all that much. It's nice to meet customers and, uh, sometimes you don't get too much from some people and sometimes you get gold where like everyone I tell about emailing courses gets excited and no one cares about the chat.

So now I know which way to go. Right? It's pretty obvious the chat thing is, is dead and the email thing is, is. Yeah, so that's what I get out of it. And a lot of my friends with bigger companies have started doing the same. And, and here's my little system in case you're, uh, wondering. Yeah, yeah. We just said, say if you wanna chat with us, email me back.

And we put it in a newsletter and I say, Email me back. I want to talk. And I have a canned email that goes out to anyone that puts that line and it says, Hey, sign up for a 10 minute chat, uh, at these times. And it sends me a cal link and I have a calendar event that's a 10 minute phone call to enter their phone number, and if they've bought my rating course.

And maybe a little note section, and that's it. So whenever I, uh, whenever it's time to call someone, I just load up my calendar, click the number, and I'm talking to 'em. Awesome. Um, so that, that's the whole system. It's very simple. Um, and it's not really hard. And sometimes, sometimes people have cool businesses.

I, I've learned a lot about people's businesses and what they're really looking for. Um, just through these calls it's pretty amazing. So I highly.

Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, definitely. Um, and I think, uh, even if you're someone that you kind of feel like you don't enjoy being on the phone or, or, or whatever, or you're nervous about that or something, as you said, like yeah, you can actually have great conversations with your customers.

Cause first of all, they're saying that they wanna talk with you. And they're, they're probably your customers, so they probably bought something from you. They probably enjoy, enjoy something about what you have to say already. Um, hopefully. Oh yeah.

Neville Medhora: Sometimes people like, I can't believe you actually called.

This is great. It's free. Like this is amazing.

Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, yeah. Oftentimes it's a really great experience to actually talk with them and it's actually a really fun call. But, um, it's also a good exercise in, as you said, learning, uh, these different things of what's actually important to focus. I wanna share just one example for myself as being more of a designer of like a product designer.

I remember one of our older products, I was really focusing on designing like this perfect, like, input box for the, the one main area of the product. And I thought like, wow, this is, this is great. This is really awesome. I talked with people about it. They couldn't even find it. They didn't even know where it was.

And I realized like all the time I spent like making the, the pixels look so nice and all that, it is completely wasted. It had to be in a completely different spot and it, it was difficult at the very beginning to hear that feedback. But it was so valuable because it eventually I realized like, wow, this is, it's a hun, they're a hundred percent right that this is how it has to be.

And so, yeah, it's definitely valuable to hear that feedback. And if somebody is, uh, is kind of going against your idea, um, try to, uh, leave your ego to the side for a little bit and think about why they're saying that. Because oftentimes they, uh, they have really val, valid and, uh, helpful opinion.

Neville Medhora: It.

Absolutely. And you'll notice people repeat things, right? So like, like let's say one person doesn't like a feature. I'm like, okay, that's one data point. Yeah. But then you asked five people in the course of a day if they want a chat box and no one says yes. You're like, well, okay, maybe there's something to it.

Or, or everyone's like, I didn't even know you have a form there. What, what are you talking about? You know, um, that, that means like pretty clearly that people just. You haven't hit gold yet. Yeah. Right. But if everyone unanimously says, Oh my God, that's so cool. Um, how can I sign up? You know, that's, that's the ultimate sign if they're signing up again.

And so, uh, I mean, one recent thing I've learned is, uh, I talked about my office hours a couple times. I talked about some to some, uh, some other people that hadn't signed up and I mentioned, I'm like, Yeah, does the office hours appeal to you? And they're like, Yeah, you mentioned office hours. I don't know what it is.

Like, what, what do you do? And I'm like, Literally, get on the call and you can ask, and everyone that asks gets to talk to me. And we'll often rewrite stuff on the call. So if you have a problem with a cold email, for example, I'll just, we'll just rewrite it on the call and I'll show you what's wrong and how to make it better.

And they're like, Oh, wait. So you'll just like rewrite it with. Yeah, and they're like, That's like free consulting. I'm like, Yeah. They're like, I get this every week. Yes. They're like, I didn't even know that I read your sales page. I saw the office hours section. I didn't understand that that's what that was.

And I've heard that a couple times and I thought, Okay, I messed up. I'm not explaining it correctly. And so maybe I should record a video about it or just rewrite that to explain that more clearly. But clearly I'm doing something incorrectly to, uh, communicate that. So these customer calls are very, very valuable and uh, I think it's something you should really do every week for sure.

And I think it's important to do multiple ones per day. Cause I think what happens if someone, one person gives you feedback, it could be an. View of someone, maybe someone says, Ah, I hate all this stuff. Whatever. And you're like, hope kinda get the check it with somebody else else. Exactly. You have to, you have to run it by a couple opinions.

Cause you know, one person might have some crazy opinion that, uh, may not be correct. Fully correct. Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty: Awesome. All right, Well, I've got one more question for you. Um, if you could ask our audience anything, uh, anything you're interested in, uh, anything you want them to think about, what would you ask them?

Neville Medhora: I would probably say, what platform do you learn the most from? So, so meaning like what, what social media platform or, or where, what, what methods? So for example, um, I listen to a lot of podcasts. And I listen to a lot of podcasts for kind of like entertainment reasons. I listen to a lot of comedians, that kind of stuff.

Um, I learn, I think the most off of YouTube and Twitter. So a lot of the stuff I need to learn, like, uh, you know, I have a house and if I need to know, how do I, uh, repair XYZ door handle that? I look that up on YouTube almost all the time. Um, I do read books, but probably less and less. And in fact, I probably replace books with certain podcast interviews.

So listen to a ton of podcast interviews, um, on YouTube and on Apple Podcasts. Um, I learn a lot from Twitter. I feel like, so I follow a lot of people on Twitter and I feel like I learn a lot from them. And I learn to some degree on Instagram too. I use Instagram mostly as a social platform with friends.

However, I follow a couple people and I do learn from their, from their posts. And so I was just curious, what platform do you learn the most from? Like, where do you, where do you hang out? Where do you spend the most time? Where do you consume the most content and get the most joy out of? I'd be curious about that.

I would love to hear that.

Bryan McAnulty: Awesome. Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. I think for myself, I feel it's definitely shifted over the years. I feel like, uh, it's YouTube more recently. Um, and but like a combination of like YouTube and podcasts kind of as you said. Um, I used to use Twitter so much more. I don't know what really stopped me with that, but yeah.

Interesting. I'm, I'm curious about people's answer

Neville Medhora: I have some, we can talk about it off the call, but I have some reasons about Twitter, so .

Bryan McAnulty: Okay. Interesting. All right, well thanks so much Neville. Um, where else can people find you online before we get going?

Neville Medhora: Main place is copywritingcourse.com

just type that in. You'll, uh, you'll, you'll find me, I'd say sign up for email and newsletter. I think that's the best thing. One of the things on all these calls, 100% unanimous, uh, thumbs up feedback is they love our thing called the swipes email. So every we, we send a swipes email. And it means swipe wisdom.

Interesting. It's like a whole acronym. You could read it out and it goes out every Friday at 7:15 AM and you get that and everyone loves that. So I'd say sign up for that first and foremost. And then if you wanna learn about copywriting, we do have a community. If you wanna see how I do it, um, and actually get help for me directly hop on these office hours, take advantage of it.

Like I said, uh, you know, not as many people show up as you may think. And so that, that's a, it's a real underrated thing to be able to show up just like Bryan did with, with, with that one guy from click up. So if I'm there and then I'm on, uh, Twitter at Ne Med, but I'd really like to, uh, sign up for the email newsletter.

I think I could really prove myself to you there, give you a lot of value and I think you'll like, uh, our Friday email a lot.

Bryan McAnulty: Awesome. All right. Thanks so much, Neville.

Neville Medhora: Thanks for the opportunity. Thanks, Bryan. Appreciate

Bryan McAnulty: if you enjoyed this interview and want the chance to ask questions to our guests live.

Tune in on Tuesdays when new episodes premiere on the Heights Platform Facebook page. To learn more about the show and get notified when new episodes release, check out The Creator's Adventure dot com. Until then, keep learning and I'll see you in the next episode.