Bryan McAnulty [00:00:00]: What happens to your business when you get sick or what if you want to go on a vacation for a few days with your family? If your income stops, as soon as you stop working, then you're setting yourself up for burnout. But what if there was a way to automate 80% of your your operations and still scale your business to 6 figures? That's exactly what Camila Gornia did. She said goodbye to sales calls, posting on social media every day and constantly selling. Camila is the founder of heart behind hustle and evergreen icon. And she's helped over 25,000 entrepreneurs build sustainable businesses that give them freedom and financial success. With over 2,000,000 in revenue generated for her clients, Camila knows a thing or 2 about scaling smart, not hard.

Kamila Gornia [00:00:40]: At the same time, in order to have a business, you have to kind of flip that and think about it differently because the content we're creating that drives sales isn't necessarily the most sometimes it is, but it's not always the content that's gonna be, like, you're super excited by it or you're super passionate about what you're creating. It has to be content that speaks to the ideal client or customer. It's addressing pain points, you know, solving a problem, whatever that might be.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:04]: Today, Camilla will share with us how she stopped burnout in its tracks, built a business on her own terms, and how to automate almost every aspect of your business so you can grow without constantly overworking. Welcome to the creator's adventure, where we interview creators from around the world hearing their stories about growing a business. Hey, everyone. I'm Brian McAnulty, the founder of Fed's platform. Let's get into it. Hey, Camila. Welcome to the show.

Kamila Gornia [00:01:33]: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:36]: Yeah. My first question for you is what would you say is the biggest thing either that you did or you are doing that has helped you to achieve the freedom to do what you enjoy?

Kamila Gornia [00:01:45]: I think the biggest thing has been letting go of a lot of the actions I thought I needed to do that a lot of people told me I needed to do. And either letting them go, outsourcing them, or automating or systemizing them.

Bryan McAnulty [00:02:02]: Yeah. I think that's a powerful one. It's something that I have had to kinda make myself conscious of multiple times in my business. I think especially when you have a business like, for myself, it's a software business, so it's kind of this recurring revenue business. And when you stick take a step back, it it could be something like you go on vacation, but it could also be just like a conscious, like, okay. Let me figure out what I should kind of reprioritize here. It's interesting when you know this, the things that do and don't change in your business and, like, how okay. I haven't been doing, like, x, which I thought was maybe important, but, like, revenue is not going up or down, customers aren't complaining, or something's not really as important as you thought it was, until, you kinda find out from maybe not doing it.

Kamila Gornia [00:02:58]: Yeah. I think that, you know, I don't necessarily know if we're in that era anymore, but we were in the hustle era for so long where it was, like, just keep doing more and more and more. And I think a part of it was because, I mean, I work with a lot of women. So I know for a lot of women, it's to feel, like, worthy of success, like, I'm putting the work in. I'm also an immigrant. So there was always that mindset of, like, I need to feel deserving of the success, so I need to work really really hard because my parents are working hard and other people I know are working hard, and it's like I need to prove myself. And I think that for that reason, there a lot of entrepreneurs who are very multi passionate and it's like we love what we're doing. So it's easy to fall into the like workaholic workaholic type of vibe a little bit too.

Kamila Gornia [00:03:44]: So being able to consciously choose an easier route can feel, I think, challenging for a lot of people because it's like, doesn't get to be easier. And a lot of the actions, especially I'll I'll I'll talk to clients who think they need to do, you know, x, y, and z. And when we actually look at it, it's like, as you mentioned, like, it's not driving revenue. It's just the thing that they're doing because they think they need to be doing it, and they're wasting time on actions that are not really doing anything. Sometimes I actually see, so obviously I I teach evergreen and and and scaling and, like, automation and stuff. One of the things I'll see is I'll sometimes see a client that is so into the building of things that she'll spend her entire time, like, months building a funnel, making it perfect. But then when it comes to actually, like, driving traffic, no time at all. It's, like, not happening.

Kamila Gornia [00:04:42]: No one knows she's she exists. She has a perfect funnel, quote unquote. So that's like a perfect example of like, that's not actually the important thing because you don't know if it's gonna be effective if you haven't gotten the data from it. So

Bryan McAnulty [00:04:57]: Yeah. I think that's an example that many in our audience can probably relate to because I have seen way too many times that a creator or entrepreneur is just kinda afraid or not really launching their product. It's the biggest mistake that I've seen people make is, like, maybe they they kinda launch it, but they haven't really truly put it out there and told people about it. And they're sitting on this incredible product, but they haven't gone and tried to promote it. And so I I think as entrepreneurs, especially creative types, we can get really into the weeds of wanting to make everything perfect and enjoying the process of working on building something. And the marketing process is either something we we don't understand, we're not as comfortable with, and it seems to be something that is more challenging for some creatives.

Kamila Gornia [00:05:52]: Yeah. And I think for creators, like, and I know that was a thing I had to unlearn as well, but as creators, there's this idea of we're creating because we love to create. Like, I wanna create this piece of content. I wanna make this video. I wanna do whatever. And it's coming from a place of, like, self expression, which is which is great. And at the same time, in order to have a business, you have to kind of flip that and think about it differently because the content we're creating that drives sales isn't necessarily the most, it sometimes it is, but it's not always the content that's going to be like, you're super excited by it, or you're super passionate about what you're creating. It has to be content that speaks to the ideal client or customer.

Kamila Gornia [00:06:35]: It's addressing pain points, you know, solving a problem, whatever that might be. And what I'll see too, I was actually speaking to someone the other day and she was saying how she's been working behind the scenes for 6 months, not building funnels, but she's like, I'm planning out my content so that when I'm ready to launch and put myself out there, I have all this content and it's ready to go. And it's like, okay, but is it the right content? Because I would hate if you spent 6 months of your time creating things that were, like, nice, but if you have again, if you wanna have a business, like, you have to make sure that you acknowledge what people are responding to. And a lot of times for people that are, like, just in creation mode, they're not listening to what people are actually asking for. And then they struggle to get engagement, they struggle to get the sales, and they think it's something wrong with them when in fact they're just not thinking of the right aspect as to why they're putting the content out there.

Bryan McAnulty [00:07:27]: Yeah. I completely agree. And I think it's so important to get that feedback loop going early by just trying something because you don't know. And, like, even for me now, like, I've helped all these people launch course businesses and everything. And the last time I built some kind of course myself, you would think, okay. Well, I know how to do this. I I know what I think my audience wants. Like, I'm just gonna start making the thing, but I decided to, like, not think too much about it.

Bryan McAnulty [00:07:58]: I asked my audience, and I found things that I know I wouldn't have thought of if I didn't just ask them, but it made it so much easier. And if you don't have the audience yet, just to try 1 or 2 little things and find out what resonates because you will find things that you probably didn't expect or anticipate, and then you can learn how to to tailor things to that. Because I hate to see when someone puts all that effort in and then they launch it. It doesn't go the way that they want. They're burnout. Maybe they can't continue because they don't have time or money to, like, keep going anymore. And so it's, I guess, scary, but so much better if you can start putting things out earlier.

Kamila Gornia [00:08:38]: Yeah. So something that I teach is, like validation, and we like to validate with paid ads. So initially, like, it let's say that someone started or maybe they're wanting to create a course or program and they're not sure, like, what the topic needs to be or what the angle needs to be. You can obviously try to validate it with social media, but for people who have smaller audiences, it's like, you're probably not getting that much reach. So any validation you're gonna get, like, it's probably not gonna be, like, confidently validated. So for anyone that's wanting to shortcut that process so that at least you're in a better position, like, okay, people seem to care about this topic more than others. I always recommend running very simple ads. Like, let's see what people are, like, willing to click on.

Kamila Gornia [00:09:22]: Like, not even, like, is there a freebie? Is there a whatever? Like, let's just see what speaks to people in terms of, like, let's say it's just one topic. Let's say it's, like, weight loss. And there's so many ways to talk about weight loss. There's so many different processes and angles and, like, people are not willing to do a lot of things in order to achieve the goal of weight loss, especially nowadays. It's like the longer you're in in the industry, the more people have preferences because they've been inundated with so many of the same ways of doing it that they've tried it and they're like, that doesn't work for me. So being able to get that out of the way as quickly as possible and knowing, oh, interesting people are interested in, I don't know, walking for weight loss or I don't know, whatever the thing is, I always come up with the weirdest ideas and examples, but, that just makes it so much faster. So in like, immediately it can be like, okay, well, now let me see if I can create content around that. Okay.

Kamila Gornia [00:10:16]: Cool. Like, it is actually people are interested. Maybe it's a little different. And then, like, you can at least feel like you're not guessing as much, when it comes to creating the products and stuff.

Bryan McAnulty [00:10:26]: Yeah. I like that. I I tend to suggest to, like, a newer creator to kind of not get into ads because they don't know if they have, like, there's too many variables. Maybe it's not the ad. Maybe it's their whole offer. Like, things are not set up yet. Whereas, like, once they've got the offer, their landing page, all that dialed in, then you can drive traffic to it. But I think what you're suggesting is not necessarily using the ads in that way and spending a ton of money.

Bryan McAnulty [00:10:54]: It's more so just like using it to make sure your content kinda gets enough eyeballs that you can validate it.

Kamila Gornia [00:11:00]: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I am an ads girl, so I always like ads. I think it shortcuts the process, but I totally, be like resonate with what you're saying too, because it is the like safer route to just create content and like do it organically. But, initially, I mean, you can you can spend as little as, like, $20 and get all of your ideas validated, and you don't have to create anything on the back end necessarily. It's just literally, like, are people willing to is this interesting enough for people to click on? And, like, that's all it is. Don't worry about conversion.

Bryan McAnulty [00:11:35]: Don't worry about

Kamila Gornia [00:11:36]: anything else.

Bryan McAnulty [00:11:36]: For somebody who wants to do this, like, is this kind of content, like, it's just the same kind of content you would post on social media? Like, it's not directing to a landing page or anything, or or is it still gonna try to get their email or get to them by?

Kamila Gornia [00:11:49]: You can get their email if you wanna get it kinda depends on the level of, like, experience of the creator. Like, if they're brand new and they're, like, not techie, I try not to intimidate them by, like, let's create a landing page. So very simple. Like, if they have a website, they have whatever, you don't even have to collect their email address. I always like to just because, like, if I'm gonna spend money, I might as well try to get some email addresses.

Bryan McAnulty [00:12:10]: Yeah.

Kamila Gornia [00:12:11]: But the main thing, it wouldn't be the same as social media because what works on social media is, like, reels and there's, like, more effort. And then the question is, like, well, was the lighting bad? What were you just, like, really boring? Was, like, was the hook wrong? This is less about that. It's more about, like, what's the positioning? So if you're thinking about creating an online course or a group program, it's like, okay, what's the idea for that? And really it's like, what's your process? What's your method? So how to x without y in even if blank, for example. And coming up with a few of different variations, maybe they're not sure, maybe it's, like, I don't know, maybe it's how to lose £20 in, you know, 6 months without counting macros. Okay. Let's try that. Maybe another one is like how to get really fit. Maybe it's about the the fit versus losing weight.

Kamila Gornia [00:12:57]: So you can kind of experiment with a few different ways to communicate it and then just put that out there. It doesn't matter what the page is, but we do wanna track, click, clicks to the page regardless because that's it kind of creates more of, intent. It's not super high intent, but it's higher intent than just engaging with, like, passively engaging with a piece of content.

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:20]: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. So you're kind of using it to dial in the result or the outcome that you're trying to provide somebody and how you're gonna communicate that.

Kamila Gornia [00:13:29]: Right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And it's cool because you can track and, like, test pretty much anything as well. So, you know, you can test the headline, you can test the name of the program, you can test a lot of different things. A lot of times I think the name of the program isn't quite as important, but, like, you could do it if you wanted to. Like, what's gonna be the most interesting? You could definitely try that too.

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:52]: Yeah. So you've helped over 25,000 entrepreneurs. What was the biggest challenge that you faced when scaling your support and being able to kinda help such a large number of people?

Kamila Gornia [00:14:08]: Oh, I think for me, I there was only, like, one time where I felt like I was strapped and I needed more support because I primarily sell online courses and group programs as well. So my programs are quite streamlined, like, I have the curriculum, I have assessments, assignments, like, everything is quite systemized in the program so that I can handle a good amount. I mean, the 25,000 was over a course of years. So it wasn't like at the same time, I had 20, that that probably would be very intense. But as I run my programs, it's very I try to make it very easy for people to take action so that if they have questions, it's not questions that are like, I don't wanna say easy to answer, but they're not obvious questions that, like, they just have to go to the curriculum. Ideally, it's like questions that everyone would benefit from essentially. But there was one time where I don't remember exactly how many people I had in the program, but I I don't know if I didn't necessarily feel strapped, but I wanted to have a little bit more time and I felt like people in my program would also benefit from having a different perspective. So I hired support coaches.

Kamila Gornia [00:15:21]: So at a certain level, it's either you wanna add a different perspective for your clients or customers, or you simply don't have the energy or demand with to support the quantity of people you have in the program, but being able to bring support coaches, people that are either doing the same exact thing as you are, but they're just trained under you. People that are like, for example, I have a tech concierge in my program now, so I don't like answering questions about tech. I like the strategy, not the, like, details. So I brought someone in that can just answer the techie, like, connect this and then press this button. And it's like, she can deal with that. I don't wanna deal with that. And it's an easy because it's so clear, it's easy to fill that role, and it's just very clear for the clients as well. So that's how I've navigated that.

Kamila Gornia [00:16:09]: And also keeping in mind, I think a lot of times people think that, you know, if you have a hundred people in a program at any given time, active clients, that everyone's actively asking questions every single time. But I often find that the engagement tends to taper off after the 1st month. So it's a, I often run like 3, 6, 12 month programs, just in terms of, access. So we always see a little bit of tapering in terms of engagement. So if I onboard 10 new clients in a month, they might all be kind of engaging, but a lot of times, even that isn't as intense because everything is so systemized so that when they have a question, it's just it's just easier. So I think it always comes down to being very intentional about how are you onboarding clients, being intentional about what the structure is, making sure the questions are preemptively answered in the curriculum, like, even adding like, if you have a lesson right there, okay, you can always add, like, a frequently asked questions. Like, let's add that right up front instead of having people ask questions, and then you have to work more. So some some ways I did that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:17:16]: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. And it's another point to, being able to kinda start this early and, not getting hung up. Oh, what what if I get 25,000 clients right away? What am I gonna do? Well, they're not gonna be all right away, and you can start to figure out, okay. I'm I got ants asked this question again and again. I'm gonna make sure it's in that lesson in the FAQ. And if you don't have any kind of process starting out, you can start to recognize what that process is for yourself, document it, and then it all becomes easier as you go.

Kamila Gornia [00:17:50]: Yeah. And I think that, you know, people sometimes try to get ahead of it and, like, they kind of put the cart before the horse where they're like, let me think of all the possible things that are gonna be happening. And they end up working more again, trying to be very preemptive about the questions, but it is easier to just wait initially when you first run the program. Like, let's see what what is actually confusing for people because sometimes you might over explain something to the level that, like, people didn't have questions about it to begin with. Like, you did a good job the first time. So waiting and then kind of as you mentioned, like, building up that library or that archive of answers, like, that's a good way to approach it. But, you know, big way or the big consideration for me, like, I've had a lot of people on my in my community over the years. And it's not just clients, it's customers.

Kamila Gornia [00:18:39]: It's like, you know, my low ticket things, and it's my courses. And a lot of the courses don't have any access, which, something that I'm proud of in my business is that I have a pretty high I don't have the percentage, but a lot of my people end up cross buying other products that I create. So there's a very clear, like, a seamless transition of, like, you buy this, and then the next step is this, and then you might wanna add this other thing to make this better. And it all feels very seamless and not pushy and nothing like that. Like, it's very much, like, optional. But that's I think the biggest reason why yeah. Like, I've been able to have a lot of transactions without necessarily having to always generate a lot of new customers or new clients because of that repeat or recurring or renewals that are received in my programs as well.

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:28]: Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point too. And, like, I like this business overall because you can always adapt. You can always change. And I think newcomers tend to think, oh, I have to make this one course or this one program, and it's gonna, like, either be nothing or it's gonna be, like, the best thing ever, and then I make it, and I'm done. But the reality is you're going to continuously evolve and try out these different things, figure out what works for you, and also that the people who buy from you, those are the most likely people to spend more money with you and buy again. And often we think, oh, I've got these customers.

Bryan McAnulty [00:20:04]: How do I go get more customers? But the people most likely to buy from you are the people who already bought.

Kamila Gornia [00:20:11]: Exactly. And it's so easy, like, for anyone that's selling an online course that's just, like, a DIY self study, it's so easy to just, like, add on support or add on a community. I do often see, like, for the people that are buying a DIY version of any course, the likelihood that they're going to upgrade or renew or buy something else is much lower if there isn't any level of connection. So they are wanting to be led. And because a lot of times when someone just buys a course, what do most people do? Unless it's a very high ticket thing, they're probably not gonna open it or they're gonna watch, like, the first module and then they're gonna stop, so they'll they'll forget about you. And unless they're actively looking for your emails, you're probably not going to convert that person or have a repeat buyer. So I think being able to add in at least a community or something in there that engages them a little bit more, they're gonna be more open to either enrolling in, like, a higher tier, a a VIP tier with access or buying the next thing or just it kind of changes and evolves the relationship from just I'm a buyer and I'm the student to let me become a client. It doesn't have to be complicated, but the relationship changes.

Bryan McAnulty [00:21:23]: Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, there even there even is a relationship in that sense versus, like, they just buy this quick course. They've never actually interacted with you in some way. So I completely agree with that. Having either community interaction with with you, something like that is a really important thing to do. So you talk a lot about automation. You've automated 80% of your business operations.

Bryan McAnulty [00:21:49]: What would you say are some areas of a coaching business that people can easily automate to take kind of that first step towards an evergreen business?

Kamila Gornia [00:22:00]: My favorite for the very first step is always client onboarding. So being able to enroll a client, I mean, whether you're doing sales calls or not, I think when the person buys, like, the minimum is they get the emails, they get onboarded, they know exactly what's happening, knowing exactly how to book the calls so that you can yeah. You just don't have to waste time between, like, when when is a good time for us to talk? And then what about next week? It's just, like, not a good use of that client's time, your time. So that would be like step 1, onboarding. The second step I always recommend having email sequences, email automation for I mean, there's so many varieties and so many different types. So, it would probably require me to kind of talk a little bit deeper, but at the very minimum, again, like being able to understand when someone joins your community, your email list, for example, what do they need to know about you? What is your way of thinking so that they can see you as someone that's different from everyone else? A lot of times what I see people doing is they'll have a freebie or whatever. The person joins the email list and then nothing happens. They just start sending newsletters, which is fine fine.

Kamila Gornia [00:23:11]: But what happens is that person kind of feels like I entered into the movie theater in the middle of the movie and it's like, who's who? What's happening? Why is everyone crying in the like, there's something like, I don't know what's going on. So being able to introduce them to it, it's kind of like instead of movie a movie theater analogy, it's like I'm going into a party and the person, the host is like, oh my gosh, You have to meet, you know, this person so and so, and then we also do this, and this is the kitchen. You can get the cocktails here. And it makes a person feel special in a sense where they're like, okay, I belong here. So at the very minimum, like, a nurture welcome type of sequence, from there. My favorite thing, however, just to finish on that. Okay. 2 things.

Kamila Gornia [00:23:57]: And then I like talking. My favorite thing, something that I stopped doing is, sales calls, discovery calls. I no longer do them even though I sell coaching packages, stuff like that. That has been my favorite thing to automate, and I basically created sales call replacements in a sense. So whether that's trainings, specific emails that I send, different pages that I create depending on what the offer is to be able to communicate what the offer is, what the problem it solves, like, in a very specific way has been a game changer because to me, it was very draining to be on discovery calls and keep hearing from people how they really wanna join this thing, but they're just gonna get in their own way. And I'm not the person to, like, convince or, like, I'm just, like, I can't be bothered. Like, I'm I'm not gonna do that. So being able to release that has been massive, gave me a lot of time back and automating lead generation because I like creating content.

Kamila Gornia [00:24:59]: I don't like creating content to get something out of that content. Like if I'm creating content because, oh my gosh, I need to get the sale or I need to, like, I hope this goes viral or whatever. It creates so much pressure on the content. So I feel more limited in terms of, like, my self expression and, like, all that stuff. So I prefer to see content creation as a way to nurture an audience that has been built through ads. And that way it just feels more I'm all about, like, I I just wanna feel, like, more empowered and more, like, in control or more just like like, this is enjoyable versus, like, super stressful.

Bryan McAnulty [00:25:37]: Yeah. And it's important to feel like that as a solopreneur, like, trying to do this yourself for the most part as well. Because if you want to be able to really operate the way that you want, apart from just enjoying your life and your and what you're doing, it's important to not always be stressed about, oh, is this gonna be this thing? Like, everything depends on this piece of content. I wanna talk about the the not doing sales calls because I think that's something a lot of people would also like to to not have to do in a coaching business. So can you tell a little bit more about, like, how does that work? How can you keep clients connected and and actually get them to convert and buy from you if you're not doing the sales calls?

Kamila Gornia [00:26:24]: Yeah. So I always look at it as, like, what's the congruent way of selling. So if I'm selling a 1 on 1 package of some kind, then I will wanna talk to the person in some way. I usually won't do a sales call or discovery call, but I might do, like, a vibe check or something. Like, let's just jump on the call real quick. Like, you already know what the offer is, but let me just make sure that we're not gonna, like, hate each other that we're actually, like, vibing. So I would do something like that. And the reason why is because, well, if we're gonna have calls in a one on one capacity, we should probably have a call to like, it's a congruent way of selling essentially.

Kamila Gornia [00:27:00]: When I sell groups or when I sell courses, the congruent thing there, it's there's no reason for me to do a 1 on 1 call, AKA sales call or discovery call because there's no one on one access in a group program. And of course it just doesn't make any sense. So I always kind of look at it from that perspective from there. My favorite thing is, and it just depends on the price point, but the biggest thing is every niche is going to have a different price point that makes it easier for people to say yes without a sales call. So if I was selling $10,000 packages without sales calls, it would take me probably a lot more effort to do that because, well, people have to kind of think about it and it's just, they need to be held a little bit more. But for me, I actually lowered my pricing for a lot of my programs. So I used to sell $20,000 group programs, $15,000 you know, different experiences. And my highest price program is 10,000, but that's the VIP tier.

Kamila Gornia [00:27:59]: So my highest price actual program is 5,000. Most of my programs, most of my courses are around like a1000, 1500, something like that, which in the business coaching niche is quite of a lower price. So people don't really need to talk to me. They might email me. They might, you know, obviously I'll do, like, a training or something to explain, like, here's what's different about it. I'll have a, usually, I do either a Google Doc to explain, but it comes down to if somebody has a question, they email me, I answer the question, they might DM me where I can voice message them a little bit and answer questions that way. But because of the price being, I don't wanna say appropriate, but the price is easier for people to say yes to without feeling as much of a risk going into it. So it's all about, like, risk aversion in a sense, it's like comparing other options and also incorporating, like, if I'm selling to a cold audience because I I like to run ads, this is where, okay, do we need to include additional things to make it even bigger of a yes for people? If it's if $1,000 is a lot for them because they don't trust me, okay, so do we have some kind of a risk reversal reversal in there? Maybe there's a guarantee, maybe there's a money back, thing.

Kamila Gornia [00:29:14]: So if you join and you're like, wow, this girl sucks, you'll get your money back within x amount of time, making sure that's very clear. Is there, like, are there specific bonuses that you can include that are different from what people typically see a lot of times implementation based bonuses can be really helpful for people. So it's not like I'm just learning and I'm gonna sit there, which is kind of how most courses tend to be. People at this point are like, I've taken the courses, I still haven't gotten results. Okay, so you can probably incorporate bonuses they haven't seen before that will actually make them feel more safe in making the decision. So it's kind of looking at a lot of that and then just testing it and seeing. There will, I will say that some offers, however, work really well with a cold audience where I don't have to know you. I see the offer, solo presented, I'm in.

Kamila Gornia [00:30:02]: And then other times the per the offers are actually better for warm traffic. So they will have to be in my audience for a certain amount of months before I present a specific offer for them to be like, okay, because I already trust you, now I'm ready to actually say yes. So this is why I like and this is what we talked about, not just having one offer where it's like you're either a yes or a no, if you're a no, goodbye. It's more like, okay, here's this offer. Okay, cool. There's these other things where we can start a client or student relationship, and eventually you can be invited into this next thing. So it's it doesn't always start that way, obviously, because that's a little bit more complex, but it's looking at the intention and who is the actual perfect ideal person for each particular offer. And if someone's been in my audience for a while, they'll buy my $10,000 program without a a call because they just had they've bought other things from me.

Kamila Gornia [00:30:54]: They've been in my other courses and stuff like that. So it's like, they don't really need to even talk to me to make that decision a lot of times.

Bryan McAnulty [00:31:01]: Yeah. Exactly. But so then for the most part, the ads that you're running, it's not gonna be for the $10,000 program. It's more for, like, a low ticket offer. And then they get in your audience, then they kinda ascend through those different programs as they get to know.

Kamila Gornia [00:31:14]: Yeah. That's what I've seen work best. I'm still trying to see if there's any way that we can present the higher ticket, sooner. But so far, my best results have been either directly from Kohl's to they join my email my email list. We they see a training of some kind, then they're presented with a offer for, I don't know, $1,000, maybe a little bit under or over that. And that's like the initial step sometimes, which I really like doing low cost, to get buyer leads, so low cost offers. So they sign up and not necessarily always a course, but maybe it's like a little resource or something like that. They buy the relationship changes from I'm a lurker to I'm a buyer.

Kamila Gornia [00:31:57]: So they're more likely to pay attention to future things, depending on what that low ticket offer is as well. Because psychologically, it kind of depends on how they're going interact with you. If they just got it because they wanted the thing or they got it because they wanna know what you have to say about the thing, which there is a big difference with that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:32:14]: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. And I mean, for us in in my business, it's software for the most part rather than courses now. But, like, we still realize a lot of our customers, like, if they're gonna purchase and subscribe to our software, like, deciding, okay. I'm gonna be this course creator, coach, community builder. It's generally not something that unless you're already trying to find a solution for, you're gonna see, like, a Facebook ad and say, oh, I'm doing it. I'm subscribing for $1,000 a year or or whatever.

Bryan McAnulty [00:32:44]: And so but there is this massive audience of people who are interested in, like, becoming a course creator or doing that soon. And so, like, we don't wanna lose those people, and so that's what we have is, like, our training and our content that way to get people involved. And, like, the goal is not to really even make money with that, but just to find out, like, who who is these kind of people so we can keep in touch with them. And then when they're ready, they remember us and they're ready to go and buy that. So I think it's it's similar with a a course itself or a program and kind of leading people through that journey. One thing that you reminded me of was I had a conversation with, Carrie Jack a couple years ago, and he said as far as, like, the the higher ticket offers, what he did was he had a funnel where basically you could buy everything at once if you wanted to. And so it was presented as, like, here's the low ticket offer, but then if you buy that, he had these these different upsells or or order bumps where he would say, like, okay. Well, actually, are you ready to, like, buy this big package right now? And for a small percentage of people, like, they get it from seeing, like, that one video, and they're like, this is the person I need to help me, and they will just go and buy that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:34:02]: And so I think for the most part, it's and it depends on the offer, of course. It's probably easier to build that relationship and then introduce the higher ticket offer later on. But I haven't tried it myself really in-depth, but I'm I'm interested to try it because it could be an interesting thing to, like, why are we why delay offering the person, like, the $5,000 package if they're sitting there, like, ready to buy it right now, but they don't know you have it.

Kamila Gornia [00:34:31]: Totally good point.

Bryan McAnulty [00:34:32]: Easier said than done, but I think it's interesting.

Kamila Gornia [00:34:35]: Yeah. I I actually I I that's so funny you say that because very recently I saw someone, because I haven't I haven't tried that, myself where I'm just like, here you go. Here's my big program immediately. I think something to consider there, it's the niche as well, like, how saturated is the niche because

Bryan McAnulty [00:34:52]: Yep.

Kamila Gornia [00:34:53]: And then that's my assumption because I haven't tried this, but I would kind of assume, like, if people are seeing a lot of options out there, they might be would be more hesitant to potentially sign up for the big thing if there's a lot of other alternatives that they could consider that are maybe, like, lower in price. But if it's a very unique mechanism or a different way that they haven't seen before, I could see that working a lot more easily potentially because they're like, well, this is the first time I've seen anything like this or maybe I haven't seen a lot of other people that look legit. So that might potentially work. But, yeah, I I saw someone posting somewhere about that where they plugged in. It wasn't a $5,000 program, but it was like upsell upsell 1 was a $1,000 course immediately. And I was like, and it's obviously not a large percentage of people that are buying that, but some people are buying that. So I was like, interesting. Well, you have to be make sure that you're really presenting it very clearly, because I think it's important to also not harm the relationship that you've started as well.

Kamila Gornia [00:35:56]: So I work with a lot of women, and women can be, like, more receptive to, like, oh, you're just trying to sell me a lot of times. So if we go a little bit too aggressively with that, it can be off putting. So it's another thing to test and see how it performs really. It's always, it's always the best solution.

Bryan McAnulty [00:36:16]: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely feel there is a lot of nuance to it. And I know I've experienced times when, like, somebody gets me on the sales call or present something and I just have this feeling like, oh, wow. They wanted all this money right away, and it's because I didn't understand or trust really what they were offering yet. Whereas if they if they got me earlier with that, then I may have not been, kinda reacting that way to the price. Mhmm.

Kamila Gornia [00:36:42]: Yeah. Gotta love testing.

Bryan McAnulty [00:36:44]: Yeah. Definitely. Alright. Well, I've got, one more question for you. On the show, I like to have every guest ask a question to our audience. So if you could ask our audience anything, whether something you're curious about or just kinda wanna get people thinking about, what would that be?

Kamila Gornia [00:36:59]: Yeah. I would love to know from you guys who are listening, what would be the biggest game changer if you could automate that particular part of your business?

Bryan McAnulty [00:37:12]: Alright. And then, Camilla, before we get going, where else can people find you online?

Kamila Gornia [00:37:17]: Yeah. I'm on Instagram. I am at heart behind hustle, and also heart behind hustle.comorevergreenicon.com is the other option as well.

Bryan McAnulty [00:37:30]: Alright. Thanks so much.

Kamila Gornia [00:37:31]: Thank you.

Bryan McAnulty [00:37:33]: I'd like to take a moment to invite you to join our free community of over 5,000 creators at creatorclimb.com. If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more, check out the Heights Platform YouTube channel every Tuesday at 9 AM US Central. To get notified when new episodes release, join our newsletter at thecreatorsadventure.com. Until then, keep learning, and I'll see you in the next episode.