Bryan McAnulty [00:00:00]:

Have you ever wondered how much you should charge for creative work? Or worried that raising your prices might scare your clients away? Rebecca Hay used to feel the same when she started out as a designer. She was working part time in restaurants and staging homes, wondering if she'd ever make it in the industry. Fast forward to today. She's the founder of Rebecca Hay Designs, a multi award winning seven figure interior design firm in Toronto. Rebecca completely transformed her business when she restructured her pricing, doubled her fees and started leading with confidence instead of comparing herself to others. Now she's on a mission to help other designers and creatives do the same. To price for profit, protect their creative time, and build businesses that support the lives they actually want. In this episode, you'll learn how Rebecca turned her business around with one simple pricing shift and how you can do the same.

Rebecca Hay [00:00:44]:

Like, I'm going to reduce the price and I'm going to move it to the front. I'm going to make it a front end membership and it's going to be really cheap. But guess what? I never really did anything to sell it. And so if you're going to put the effort behind marketing and selling something, let's make sure it's priced well for what it is. So just because it was cheaper didn't mean everyone was flocking to get the thing.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:05]:

Welcome to the Creator's Adventure where we interview creators from around the world, hearing their stories about growing a business. Hey everyone, I'm Brian McEnulty, the founder of Heights Platform. Let's get into it. Hi Rebecca. Welcome to the show.

Rebecca Hay [00:01:22]:

Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:25]:

So today we're going to talk about confidently pricing creative services, how to tackle awkward price conversations, and maybe how to build better systems as you want to scale your business. But my first question for you would be, what is the biggest thing that you did or you are doing that has helped you to achieve the freedom to do what you enjoy?

Rebecca Hay [00:01:48]:

What's the biggest thing that I've done to help me achieve the freedom to do the things that I enjoy? Whoa. That's. We're going deep real fast. I love it. So, you know, the biggest thing I've done is recognize my own limitations and what's holding me back in my mindset? I think in any business we sometimes, and we'll talk about pricing and all of that, but we tend to get our own sticker shock when it comes to pricing our services, pricing our programs, our offers. And so we think, well, I would never pay that for someone for something. And but reality Is there are people out there who will. And I think it's getting over our own imposter syndrome and recognizing that we need to think big and really get a handle on what is our own mindset when it comes to money.

Rebecca Hay [00:02:40]:

Because business, let's be honest, if you're not making money, it's a hobby.

Bryan McAnulty [00:02:44]:

Yeah, that's a. That's a great point. We saw that, that you've shared before that you started out feeling kind of more intimidated and maybe like, not good enough yet. How did you get over these beliefs when you were starting out as a designer?

Rebecca Hay [00:02:59]:

Well, two things. One thing is truthfully, experience. The more you do something, the more confident you get. But then secondly, honestly, investing in mindset coaches, reading personal development books, and this is the woo woo in me coming out a little. But it's really helped me because when I started out, listen, I ran my interior design firm for 10 years. And when I first started my firm, I felt very much like an outsider, even though I'd worked in the industry prior to that and I had contacts and I had experience, I felt like a fish out of water. I felt nervous to even say the word. I'm an interior designer.

Rebecca Hay [00:03:38]:

I was nervous to go into a trade showroom and say, hey, can I open up a trade account? And it was really hard in the very beginning because it's so much what we think about, we believe. And the reality is sometimes we shouldn't believe our own thoughts, because sometimes, more often than not for me, anyhow, if anyone can relate to this, we're really hard on ourselves, and we don't feel like we're there yet or really like we're ever gonna get there. And so I. I would say that really reading books, truthfully, personal development books, listening to podcasts like yours and mine, having podcasts at your fingertips to just keep amping you up, to give you that confidence even when you don't feel confident in yourself. And that the mindset piece, that personal development really helped fuel that evolution for me. And then, of course, beyond that, really was just learning about business because, let's face it, so many of us are creatives. We. We're really talented, we're good at our craft, we have an eye for design or whatever it is that is your specialty.

Rebecca Hay [00:04:45]:

But most of us didn't go to business school. Most of us have no freaking idea what we're doing. And we're just. We're trying to figure it out in the dark. And so the more you can access resources to help you, so you're not doing it alone. I would say that was probably one of the biggest things that helped me get past feeling like that imposter. Past feeling like I'm not good enough. Because we're all good enough.

Rebecca Hay [00:05:11]:

We just have to believe it.

Bryan McAnulty [00:05:13]:

Yeah, excellent points. I can attest to that as well. In my own journey and growth that I feel, yeah. Being able to hear from, to meet other people who are somehow doing something in some way really helped me to be able to see, okay, well they're doing this, so why not, why not? Why can't I do that? And, and, but also same background, so I didn't, I never went to, to college or anything. Definitely no business school. And so just figuring, figuring this all out as I go. And I think it's interesting about the, the pricing point too that you mentioned that like, okay, over time you become more confident than you, you believe you can charge this higher price for your services, your products. But I think what's interesting is like there's usually a gap between when you could realistically charge that and when you do become confident enough to charge that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:06:11]:

And so maybe for once, once in a while there's somebody who, maybe they, maybe their confidence is going, it's the other way and they're, they're charging too much too early. But I think for most especially creative types, it's, it's that there, there is this gap where you could be charging more earlier. You just had to become confident enough to, to realize that.

Rebecca Hay [00:06:37]:

Yeah. And I think it's so funny to hear you say that. So true. I mean I see I, I coach interior designers and I help them build their business, but I do see those designers who come into my community and they're like, oh, Rebecca says I should charge more. Okay, boom. I'm raising my prices and they have confidence without even having the experience. I think it's quite admirable, to be honest. I think it's amazing.

Rebecca Hay [00:06:56]:

I wish I was more like that. But that actually reminds me, as you were speaking, the other really powerful, I would say it's an investment of my time that I made early in my business that I recommend. Every solopreneur do is find community. Because you said that, you said, oh, I see someone else charging this, I guess I can charge it. And that's what happens when you're in community with other like minded business owners, whether they are other creatives, whether they're, you're in a mastermind, like I'm in a mastermind with other online entrepreneurs to help me build my online Business or it's a community. For example, like interior designers, they can all be together. You learn so much from just being in the presence of others who are doing what you're doing. And they're not going to be the same as you.

Rebecca Hay [00:07:43]:

Maybe they're in a different city, maybe they're further along, maybe they're just starting out. But as soon as you start to see enough, people say, for example, in my community, a big thing is, you know, I say charge for your consultation. That's the first meeting with a client before you put together a proposal. Because for most interior designers, you know, it's a luxury service and it's going to be a higher ticket proposal. And this could apply to other creative service based businesses for sure. But, and so I always say charge for your consultation. Well, many designers don't do that. And when we get into community and everyone shares, I always say, what do you charge? And you see the chat roll on fire, everyone's sharing anything from $0 to 1500.

Rebecca Hay [00:08:21]:

Well, someone in that chat sees that and is like, oh wow, well I could, I could at least charge a hundred. And so there's so much power in getting the inside scoop and seeing what and how other people do things.

Bryan McAnulty [00:08:33]:

Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah. I think there's a lot of like, potentially like big unlocks for people of just seeing that something is possible, seeing the evidence of it. It's not, it's not so much learning of like you have to learn a specific process of it, but even just knowing, oh, you could do this, I could do this for myself and my business. And so I completely agree and I'm sure a number of people watching or listening to this from our audience, we have a community building software, so maybe you sense and get that idea already. If not, though, I think this is like an example that can attest to if you don't have a community that you're offering your own customers, like maybe you should consider that.

Rebecca Hay [00:09:17]:

I think 1,000% and I think right now, at the age and stage of the world that we're living in, I think community is more important than ever. And I actually think especially with AI and ChatGPT and you can get the answer online for anything. And so it's not that courses are dead, but I do believe that there is a shift happening, there's a wave where if you can't offer that support through community, those higher touch points, I do think that it's going to be harder as the years progress. Like we're just seeing a major shift. I don't know if you're seeing this as well, but to be able to completely agree. Yeah, yeah. Like, we're bringing people together to connect with each other. ChatGPT so far isn't doing that.

Rebecca Hay [00:09:57]:

Right. And so to be able to connect with other humans who are in your program so they can connect with each other, that value, I think the perceived value of that is going up as well.

Bryan McAnulty [00:10:10]:

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. So as you were back again, like, earlier on in your career and when you were. You're working as a designer and like, is there a specific moment when you realize for yourself, okay, I need to completely rethink maybe how I priced how you priced your design services.

Rebecca Hay [00:10:30]:

I mean, there's lots of moments. How much time do we have? I could tell you my whole story. The first time that I realized I needed to get my bleep together with pricing was when I was actually working. In the early stages of my business, I worked in hgtv. I worked behind the scenes on shows like Property Brothers and Income. Property Property. And one of the designers who was working with me on that show said that she charged $250 for a consultation. I was like, what? You charge money? Like, that's crazy.

Rebecca Hay [00:11:02]:

Like, people will pay for that. I do that for free. I can't imagine charging. So that was my first step in thinking, okay, my time is valuable. I'm going to charge. And then from there, I became obsessed with pricing and figuring out how do I calculate my design fee, what is the right number for the service, what is my, you know, is it hourly, is it square footage, is it fixed fee? Is it all those things? And so I became quite obsessed with it, Started learning from coaches until I really mastered that in my design business. But then fast forward, here I am now as a coach, right, an online course creator, and faced with that challenge all over again. You launch a product and you think, well, I'm only going to charge a few hundred dollars.

Rebecca Hay [00:11:44]:

But then you see your competitors charging three times that and you realize, oh, there's value. So I wouldn't say there was really one point in time, but I do find sometimes we get set in these sort of. I don't know if you call them a rut, but, you know, you're kind of like, well, I've been charging the same for a while and then someone tells you, you should be raising your price. Your be so much more money. I can't believe you give them all that value and you're not. You're only charging. I don't know 500. You're only charging 2,000.

Rebecca Hay [00:12:10]:

It is all perspective. There are people out there who will pay $20,000 for the same thing that somebody else is only willing to pay 10 for. That somebody else is like $500. That's expensive. And so what I think pricing really comes down to is finding the right audience. If you don't know your audience and what they value, then there's going to be a mismatch. You know, right now I'm going through my own transformation in my online business where I've realized my program has incredible success and I serve interior designers, but I'm getting a lot of beginners and there's like a bit of a mismatch because they think the price is really expensive. But I'm thinking, oh my God, this is such a deal compared to the other people.

Rebecca Hay [00:12:59]:

And I realized it's more that I need to be messaging and attracting the more established. So it's really knowing your audience, I think when it comes to pricing. And that's been the biggest aha. That I've had in the online space. The same applies to service based business for anyone who's listening, right. If you want to be an interior designer and serve luxury clients in a high end neighborhood, you can't be racing to the bottom with your pricing because they're going to look at you and say she's cheap, she's probably not very good.

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:26]:

Yeah.

Rebecca Hay [00:13:27]:

So it's really knowing your client. Real quick.

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:29]:

Brian here, you know me as the host for this podcast. But what you might not know is I'm also the founder of Heights Platform. It's an all in one platform that over 10,000 creators have used to build their online courses, communities and digital product businesses. We recently added some awesome updates to Heights AI to help you turn your idea into a viable business. Heights AI can build entire product offers, review your content and even coach you on how to grow. You can try it for free for 30 days. Links in the description. Now back to the podcast.

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:58]:

Yeah, that, that's actually so important. And, and I can relate to that like myself even right now still, because so maybe still on topic I think is that. So we have the software business. That's the majority of what I do now with with Heights Platform. And so that's, that's one thing I don't, I'm not directly selling courses and communities as much on my own. It's more so like you get access through your subscription to Heights. But earlier this year we started building this like AI coding agent tool and we built it for ourselves to build our own software faster. But I thought, you know what, this is really useful.

Bryan McAnulty [00:14:37]:

I should make this a product that I go and sell to other people. And I found that, okay, the market, like typically what people pay for these like AI coding tools is like $20 a month. And there's some of the, like the fastest growing companies ever are selling these subscriptions at that price. And like that, okay, on one hand that sounds good. On the other hand, I see so many people online, like complaining that I can't believe this thing cost $20 a month. I wish, wish it was free. And so that makes me feel already $20 a month is not that much. And, and also what these things are doing is like if you're a software developer, it's basically doing your job for you.

Bryan McAnulty [00:15:15]:

It's just like, wow, it's gonna, it's doing your job for you for $20 a month and you're gonna complain about the price. And so this has me feeling, even as a relatively experienced entrepreneur, man, how am I gonna, how am I gonna price this product for this market? Also because some of the competitors in the space, they're charging the $20, but actually it's costing them more than $20. They're actually losing money because they raised all this money from investors and they're just basically giving away the, the AI at the $20. And so I thought, okay, how if I don't want to raise money for this, if I'm trying to build this product as a side thing that we used to build our own software faster, how do I actually find the right way to position this? And the answer was exactly what you talked about that you had to find, identify the right audience, because the right audience has a problem that they're willing to pay a crazy amount more for than the wrong audience. And so for me, that example was like having an individual developer that maybe wants to use this. That's probably at least so far, not the right audience. What became the right audience was I found. So thinking back again, just to anchor it here, we're looking at like maybe $20 per month product.

Bryan McAnulty [00:16:28]:

And I'm deciding how do I actually price this. I ended up finding a client that I offered like a productized service to, where what they were doing is they're not a software developer, but they're paying software developers now, this agency, to build their software for them. And I was able to position this as basically a solution so you could fire your software development agency and do it yourself. And when you think about it, that Way it's like, well, how much are you paying the agency? Well, a ton of money. And so what they required was just a way to be able to connect their existing tool to my product. And so I offered this productized service where we would help them configure that, coach them on it a little bit and then they could just use our product. And so that went from, instead of $20 per month, it was a five figure contract that they signed for us to do that. So that like completely shifts the whole thing.

Bryan McAnulty [00:17:20]:

And until I discovered that that audience exists, I didn't know that that was possible. But it's exactly true because for them this is the best deal ever to pay a five figure contract to have us do this. And for others, $20 a month is like, no, I don't think I want to pay it.

Rebecca Hay [00:17:36]:

Yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, you can be successful in either way. And this is what I'm learning. Right. We could do the volume game and sell courses or subscriptions at $20 a month. And then you're just constantly bringing in new people, new people, new people. Because there's going to be churn, people are going to leave, they're going to give up your subscription or what have you. And that's one business model.

Rebecca Hay [00:17:56]:

But then the other business model is what you just described, where the, where the, where the entrepreneur or the course creator, whatever it is you are, the leader of the business is involved and delivering a bit of a higher touch service. People will pay a lot more money for that. And I used to think I needed the volume. I used to think this is, I'm going to serve as many people as possible. Well, I realized actually that's just a constant sales engine versus serving. And I'm not saying one is right or wrong. You have to really tap into who you are and decide what you want to do. But for those listening, this might, there might be something in this for you.

Rebecca Hay [00:18:31]:

You might be thinking, yeah, I'm tired of doing that. I want to go in the direction of maybe slightly higher ticket, but there's a bit more of a level of service there and if you can nurture those customers, they will stay with you, hopefully for life. Right. Because there's a sense of loyalty as well.

Bryan McAnulty [00:18:49]:

Yeah, I'm, I'm curious your opinion on this actually, because there is. Yeah, you could decide to go. It sounds like you prefer to go more high ticket, high touch. I, I do as well. But I would argue that maybe part of the problem is that you, you can choose to go either way and, and it's fine. But I think maybe part of the problem is for less experienced entrepreneurs they will see, okay, well if I can go the volume option, they believe that because their product is cost less that they will get more customers just naturally. And so they think, oh, the solution is I'm just going to make my product cheaper and then everybody's going to buy it. And then because everybody buys it, then I'm suddenly going to be rich.

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:32]:

And I don't think that making your product cheaper makes it easier to sell it or gives you that volume and on its own necessarily a hundred percent.

Rebecca Hay [00:19:42]:

I had a membership that initially was the back end to my course. I'm like, I'm going to do the Amy Porter Field model, right? So I'm going to do the course and then I'm going to do the back end membership. And it was, it was a, I slowly raised the price but I was finding it really hard to fill because I needed people to get into the course first and then after the course I would invite them into the membership. And so I thought, oh, this is, it's too expensive. That's maybe why it was like 120amonth or something at the point, at that point. So I'm like, I'm going to reduce the price and I'm going to move it to the front, I'm going to make it a front end membership and it's going to be really cheap. And I don't remember what it started at, maybe like 40 or 50 or $60 a month. But guess what, I never promoted it.

Rebecca Hay [00:20:19]:

I never really did anything to sell it. So just because it was cheaper didn't mean everyone was flocking to get the thing. And so if you're going to put the effort behind marketing and selling something, let's make sure it's priced well for what it is and that you know your audience like to what we said before, it's really important. Even in service based industry, like with interior designers, I say all the time, you know, who's your, who's your ica? Who is your ideal client? And I used to think this is kind of like a buzz buzzy thing. But the more I learn about business, the more I learn every business needs to know their customer like so inside and out. You need to get in their head, what do they like to do on the weekends? Like what are they really looking for in an interior designer? Like what is it? Do they want you to just take care of all the details? Do they want to be involved do they want to collaborate? Like, these are things you need to know so that your service offering can reflect that and then you can price it accordingly.

Bryan McAnulty [00:21:13]:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. There's a lot of situations where a customer or client may not understand how to move forward or may like, do, do the thing that you don't want them to do purely because you haven't communicated it in the right way. And so in this case, like we're talking about the pricing, it's like they may just not buy your product because you say, oh yeah, I can, I can help all kinds of people, like, okay, great. But as a customer, like, I'm not sure I believe you can help me. I'm not sure I'm connecting with my specific problems and how I work with all this thing. But also like, it's, I think it extends beyond pricing and it's also how you're serving your customers and delivering to them. Because if you're not clear about like, okay, this is how this part works or something, then you end up getting these support questions. Not because like you were like saying something confusing or something like that, but it's like they don't understand the process of even how to work with you because you haven't like defined it the right way.

Bryan McAnulty [00:22:11]:

And so then you end up in this situation. They're saying, oh, I feel all burned out because they keep asking me all these different things and. But you never described to them like, this is how it works to work with me or this is how the program works or whatever that is.

Rebecca Hay [00:22:24]:

Oh my God, you're speaking my language like that. To me, that's process. And that's what, that's actually what. So that was, that is really what changed my business was establishing a process so that every client who came my way would do the first step first, then we would do the next step and I would educate them. Here's what's coming ahead. Once we get to step five, we're going to do this and then we have a presentation. And after the presentation, here's what's expected. And boom, boom, boom all the way to the end.

Rebecca Hay [00:22:49]:

And it was such a transformation for me. First it was gave me confidence to charge what I started charging when I doubled my rates, because I basically doubled my fees overnight and nobody balked at the price. But I came forward and said, hey, look, I'm professional. This is my seven step process. When you work with Rebecca Hay Designs, that's my design firm, here's what it looks like. And that to me was such a game changer. And that's what you're describing. When customers come and they're like, I don't know what's coming ahead or did we do this right? Or they're going to bombard you with questions, you're going to get emails, you're going to get text messages or whatever method you use and it's going to be exhausting.

Rebecca Hay [00:23:27]:

And so by having structure to your business, you sure can charge more money because you're organized and you look like a legit professional and a good company. But also you're giving your clients the confidence that you're the answer to their problem. And that's ultimately what business is. We're all just here solving other people's problems and people are paying us good money for it. Hopefully, if you're charging enough.

Bryan McAnulty [00:23:51]:

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's say somebody's watching, listening to this and they're saying, okay, I'm on board. I get it that this process is important. Can you define a little bit of like, what, what are those seven steps look like for your business? Or if somebody wanted to replicate this for their own business and, and build more of a process. Do you have any recommendations for that?

Rebecca Hay [00:24:12]:

Yeah, absolutely. First of all, I would suggest reading the book the E Myth and the book Traction. These are like my bibles. Traction especially. I really followed that to a T in the early years of my design firm. But essentially it's this idea of a franchise model. Right? McDonald's exists because every location that opens up is run the exact same way. And it's the same idea that we can apply that to our individual businesses.

Rebecca Hay [00:24:40]:

Whether you have an online course business, a community, a service based business, doesn't matter what your business is. You need to have a process. When someone inquires what happens, you have your SOPs, of course, but I mean more when I say process, I mean the client facing. When the client comes to. For example, there's like this car detailing company in Toronto where I live and I took pictures of their websites. I thought it was so good. I use it as part of my curriculum for my students as examples of process. Sort of in the wild of, you know, the first thing you do, you go to their site, you fill this in, then they tell you you can pick this option or that option.

Rebecca Hay [00:25:15]:

Great. You know, you know, it's like boom, boom, boom. Then we're going to give you a call, then we're going to set a time. You know exactly what to expect, what to expect. Every step of the way. I'm working with a Graphic designer right now I know you've graphic designers in your audience, right. She's been amazing. She said, okay, here's what we're going to do.

Rebecca Hay [00:25:30]:

We're going to have a first discovery call. After that we're going to set up the next thing. Then you can expect this by certain date. And I feel like cozy, you know, like, like they're in control. I don't need to worry that if they're going to miss something. I'm not questioning, questioning how they do things because it's all laid out there in front of me. And I learned that early on working in a restaurant. I worked in a restaurant in my 20s.

Rebecca Hay [00:25:53]:

The Earl's Restaurant is out of Vancouver. They're now all across North America. But they were so strict on their systems and it was like as soon as you arrive, you know, the hostess would greet, you'd have to greet the people who, your customers take them to their table. Then within two minutes a server needs to be at the table. We had this thing called a two minute drink time. So from the time they ordered their drink, it needed to be on their table within two minutes. Like they were so well oiled. And I learned from that experience the power of knowing what you're going to get.

Rebecca Hay [00:26:27]:

Right. That's why you go to McDonald's, that's why you go to Starbucks even though you're in Spain. Right. That's why you, you go to places that are familiar because you know exactly what you're going to get. And that's what we want to do with our business. And so that when people find us, not only do we look professional but we make them feel like we've got them.

Bryan McAnulty [00:26:45]:

Yeah, yeah. The really excellent points and the, yeah. It's not, not the, the client or the customer's fault if they, they come to you and have, have, have all these questions or start bothering you about stuff. It's because you haven't made it clear to them. And so they're, now they're worried, now they're wondering, now they think do I have to take over or, or figure something out here? But when you define it for them. Yeah. Then they, they feel comfortable and they feel confident in, in working with you because of that.

Rebecca Hay [00:27:11]:

Yeah. I always used to say to my team, my, like my design team with design projects, if a client calls us or sends us an email asking, okay, now what or what's coming ahead? This sounds harsh, but I used to say, I'm like, we have failed at our jobs. We have failed because our job it's not to make spaces beautiful. That's a given. Your craft is a given. Our job is to guide them, hold their hand and show them what's coming ahead. And if we haven't set their expectations, then we're going to start to lose trust. And once you start losing trust from your customers, it can be really hard to gain that back.

Bryan McAnulty [00:27:50]:

Yeah, yeah, that's definitely agree and that's very important.

Rebecca Hay [00:27:54]:

Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty [00:27:54]:

How would you say you handle like the conversations around money with clients and any like, tips for a new creator, new designer who maybe feels uncomfortable when it comes to actually talking about the pricing?

Rebecca Hay [00:28:08]:

My biggest advice would be don't shy away from talking about money. And I always suggest you talk about it early and often. Now this is going to depend on the type of business model you have. Of course, like if you're doing a webinar to sell into a product, product you're not going to lead with here's the price. Right. That just doesn't make sense. But if you are working on a service based business or you need to talk about money with someone, always start with the money. I say to my, when I'm coaching in my community, I say you need, first of all, you need to know your numbers.

Rebecca Hay [00:28:40]:

So if you're in a business where you need to quote something and the client's coming to you as the expert, so you need to be able to tell them this is how much it costs for a renovation. I, I don't know how much your renovation is going to cost, but here's the last three kitchens that we did. And so having those money conversations early and often is going to eliminate the awkwardness and that fear of, oh God, we're going to get to this point where now they're going to ask me and I don't know what I'm going to say and it's going to help to build that trust and you can have an open dialogue about the money up front. I mean, I love even, you know, I'm in a, I'm in a mastermind. And you know, there was no like sales pitch of here's the new price is going to be this. It's like, hey, you want to come back? This is the price. Let's talk about it. How do you feel? You know, we could do, we could do a payment plan.

Rebecca Hay [00:29:27]:

And so once you can, once you, this is the elephant in the room sometimes. Right? Talking about money. If you can just address the elephant and then have an open conversation, I think that goes a long way and I think it speaks to your integrity as well, especially in a world right now. I think we're in what they call a trust recession, especially in the online space. Nobody really knows who to trust. Everyone thinks they're being bamboozled. Oh, it's another sales pitch, right? They're waiting to be sold to. I think if you can get ahead of that by talking about the money, especially in a service based business, I think that's really important, that will make a big difference because it can be uncomfortable.

Rebecca Hay [00:30:06]:

You know, I used to go to a consultation and I was like, oh God, I'm going to have to ask them for the money at the end. And like it was like $500. It wasn't that much money. It felt like a lot at the time. And then at the end it was like, you know, you're getting all your courage up to say, do you have the check? Right. So now I say to people, if you're going to a consultation, get your money first. Make sure they pay you ahead of time before you even schedule it. And then you don't have to worry and you can just enjoy doing what you do well.

Bryan McAnulty [00:30:36]:

Yeah, yeah, it's a great point. Now back to the process one more time. So I'm curious, is there a specific system that you feel that you've created in these processes that you feel has just changed the way your business operates? Like one that stands out?

Rebecca Hay [00:30:56]:

I'm definitely figuring out a process for pricing has been helpful. Now that is shifting obviously in the online space, like selling online courses, it's a little bit different. That process looks a little different. But for the service based business, yeah, figuring out, okay, let's, let's come, let's come up with a method to this madness. So I'm not just picking a number out of a hat. Let's figure out, okay, if I were to do by square foot, what does that look like? You know, if I was to do it hourly, what does that look like? If I do it based on whatever it is, what scope, what does it look like? And then in getting a formula that works for you, so it gives you confidence, that's really helpful. But I would just say, truthfully, just having a process, it doesn't have to be perfect, it doesn't have to be 10 steps, it could be three steps. What is the process? You know, someone inquires on your website, then what do you do? Can you have a templated email to make things faster? You send them the template or a new member enters your community, what's your process for Onboarding them.

Rebecca Hay [00:31:57]:

They don't just pay and then you can dump them in the community. Do you? Maybe you do. Maybe there's a better way, right? What is, what can you do to set their expectations? And that's to me, just having a process and not, not doing things willy nilly or, you know, fly by the seat of your pants, which can be kind of fun at the beginning. We've all been there where we, we're just starting our business. We're like, oh, I can do that. Sure, I can do that too. Okay, yeah, you can pay that price. Oh, you want a discount? Sure, no problem.

Rebecca Hay [00:32:22]:

But it starts to get confusing. It starts to get overwhelming. And so if you can stick to your guns, and that'd be my biggest advice, is once you establish your way of guiding a client or customer from start to finish, stick to it. Don't make exceptions because, trust me, you'll regret it.

Bryan McAnulty [00:32:42]:

Easier for yourself as well in so many ways.

Rebecca Hay [00:32:44]:

And, and for a team, if you want to scale and hire.

Bryan McAnulty [00:32:46]:

Yes, yes. Yeah. I can attest to moments where we decided, oh, I guess for whatever reason, we will make an exception at this time. And then six months later or something, it's like, why is this thing happening? Like, why, why did whatever go wrong? Oh, it's because we made some exception here. Well, why did we do that? Well, I don't know. I guess we shouldn't have done that.

Rebecca Hay [00:33:08]:

And Totally, totally. And I will say just add to that for the exceptions. As if anyone's like, oh, I don't know if I do that. I say, listen to your inner dialogue or external dialogue if you ever use the word just, that's a red flag. Oh, well, it's, I'll just do it because it's my mom's friend or, well, let's just do it this once. Or it's just been a couple days. To me, anytime I've followed, I've instinctively acted on, oh, I'll just do something. It always comes back to bite me, bite me in the behind.

Bryan McAnulty [00:33:43]:

So how about. I'm curious because you mentioned. Yeah, like there are differences of like the, in the course world, in online world, selling a course or a membership, is there maybe like a more recent decision that you made in regards to pricing or something that you learned or feel differently about now and how you're doing it?

Rebecca Hay [00:34:04]:

Yeah, I'm in the process right now of streamlining my offers. I, at first I thought, you know, more is more. And it's funny because I should take my own advice. This is what I coach designers on their service based business. I say pick one core offer, stick with that. Down the road you can add additional offers, but you're just muddying the waters by having multiple ways that people can work with you and just keep it really streamlined and clear. Well, fast forward to the online business and you know, I've got a little evergreen course and I had my main course and I had the membership and then I'm doing a mastermind and all of a sudden it started to feel like so many things and I felt very spread very thin. And in theory that should make more money, but then you're not ever giving one its full attention.

Rebecca Hay [00:34:54]:

And I'm sure you're familiar with the book 10x is easier than 2x. I have listened to it multiple times and I'm finally taking the advice of Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy, which is I just want to focus on one thing. Another great book is the one thing I think is by Gary Keller. Is that it? I have it somewhere over here. Such a good book, but just a great reminder that more is just more and it doesn't actually mean more success. And so for me right now, what I've been learning is it's okay to just be known for one thing. In fact, some of the most successful brands, that's how they start. Then you can branch out, you can add additional revenue streams, but keep my money on the prize.

Rebecca Hay [00:35:40]:

And so I'm actually in the process of restructuring my own offers so that I can really serve and have a bigger impact. And that is for me, by being focused on one program as opposed to all the different things.

Bryan McAnulty [00:35:54]:

Yeah, yeah, I think that's really good advice. And I think I've made the mistake in the past. I think I've seen a lot of people make the mistake of the past of spreading themselves too thin and then you have good intentions. Oh, if all this worked together, then sounds really good. But there's not only added complexity on your end of having to be able to give attention to all those things, but then depending on how it shows up to the customer, sometimes a customer comes to you, they want to buy whatever your main offer is. And if they can't tell, then maybe they don't buy anything because it's like, okay, there's these, all these different things. How then they don't know how to move forward. And so it can actually in some ways, if done in the wrong way, prevent you from being able to serve and impact the people you want.

Rebecca Hay [00:36:42]:

Yeah, and I think I made the mistake. It's not that it's a mistake. I don't think anything's a mistake. I think we learn from. We learn a lesson from everything we do. But, you know, I would have students or my customers come to me and say, oh, I really wish you would do this. I really wish you would sell that. So I'm like, oh, here's an opportunity.

Rebecca Hay [00:36:58]:

I'm going to create that. And then I would create the next thing. And I was creating all these things, but ultimately then I wasn't spending time on the main offer. And it got to the point where it was like, oh, I didn't even remember who I'd sold what to. It was like, oh, that's going to be a bonus for that program. And now this time, it's that. And it was very confusing. And so as much as we want to listen to what our customers are asking, let's make sure that there's not just one or two people asking.

Rebecca Hay [00:37:22]:

And is it in alignment with where you want to go? Because it can be a distraction as well.

Bryan McAnulty [00:37:28]:

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Hay [00:37:29]:

You.

Bryan McAnulty [00:37:29]:

You actually just made me realize a really good point, and hopefully something I can help reveal to people is that we do a ton of migrations of helping people move their courses or products or whatever to our platform. And there are many times during these migrations that there are all these little products with one or two students in them, and then there's the main offer that has all of them. And sometimes that's because you're trying different things. And I think that should be encouraged because this business, one of the really cool things about it is you can realize, oh, maybe I like a community better than a course, or maybe I like a group coaching thing. And so you can always adapt that, and that's great. But other times, and a lot of times it's because you tried making all these different offers. And so they're migrating to us and they realize, okay, we're going to consolidate now into, like, this kind of main offer. And that's a point when that happens.

Bryan McAnulty [00:38:19]:

But we get to see the kind of messiness of what existed before, I guess.

Rebecca Hay [00:38:23]:

Totally. And that's so funny to hear you say that, because we've been. I've been trying to get off teachable for so long, just my own. I'm a designer. I like things to be pretty and visual, and it's just not there. And so finally this year, we're like, we are doing it, and that's where we've learned. We're like, oh, shoot, there's still people in Here that are being billed by Teachable. Because when I first started my online course, that was the platform I didn't have.

Rebecca Hay [00:38:47]:

You know, I just started. And so now I'm like, oh, my God, now I got to reach out to these people, tell them it's going away. Do I, do I even want to keep it? If I do, do I migrate it? You're right. Like, I mean, that's just part of business, though, I guess.

Bryan McAnulty [00:38:59]:

Yeah. Yeah. All right, so on the show, I like to have every guest ask a question to the audience. So if you could ask our audience anything, whether something you're curious about or kind of want to get people thinking about, what would that be?

Rebecca Hay [00:39:12]:

I think I'd like to lean into this idea of the one thing. On my screensaver of my computer, I actually have the quote from that book that I mentioned, the one thing. And this is, this is the question I'm going to ask your listeners today because it's been a really powerful one for me. And you might not know the answer to this right away. You might need to think about it. But what's the one thing that you can do such that by doing it, everything else becomes easier or unnecessary? Because we get distracted daily trying to do a million things on a to do list when the reality is what we're focusing our time on isn't necessarily moving our business forward. It's the things that are usually the low hanging fruit and they're the easy things to check off. And we tend to put off the important things.

Rebecca Hay [00:39:59]:

And the idea in that book that I've. I would love to say I practice it every day. I do not, but I would like to, and I encourage your listeners to do this is every day. Before you start your workday, ask yourself this question. And if you can do that thing first before you do the to do list or you check in on your email, your business will explode. So what's the one thing you can do such that by doing it, everything else becomes easier or unnecessary?

Bryan McAnulty [00:40:29]:

Yeah, that's a great question.

Rebecca Hay [00:40:30]:

All right, well, so it's not mine. I stole it. But it's such a good one.

Bryan McAnulty [00:40:34]:

It's great. Yeah, a good, A very good thing to think about. Rebecca, thanks so much for coming on the show. Before we get going, where else can people find you online?

Rebecca Hay [00:40:42]:

You can find me on Instagram. I love Instagram. I live there. Rebecca Hay Designs is my Instagram handle. Just go on over there and tell me that you found me listening to this podcast. I would love to hear from you and and I'd love to hear what their takeaways are.

Bryan McAnulty [00:40:57]:

All right, great. Thanks Rebecca.

Rebecca Hay [00:40:59]:

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.

Bryan McAnulty [00:41:02]:

I'd like to take a moment to invite you to join our free community of over 5,000 [email protected] if you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more, check out The Heights Platform YouTube channel every Tuesday at 9am US Central. To get notified when new episodes release, join our [email protected] until then, keep learning and I'll see you in the next episode.