Bryan McAnulty [00:00:00]:

If you think podcasting is just about visibility and downloads, this episode might completely change how you see it. Molly Ruland has helped produce over a thousand podcast episodes, including seven shows in the top 10% globally. But what makes Molly's process different is what those podcasts actually do for her business. Her company, Heartcast Media, builds podcasts that function like relationship engines, sales pipelines, and business development tools. Molly has worked with everyone from government organizations like NATO and Washington, D.C. to entrepreneurs, former NBA players, and fast growing brands. And she's seen firsthand why some podcasts generate revenue and opportunities, while others remain a simple hobby. In this episode, Molly is here to share how to turn a podcast into a sales pipeline.

Bryan McAnulty [00:00:37]:

Without sounding salesy, we'll break down how to attract the right guests, build real relationships through conversations, and use podcasting as a modern form of networking that actually leads to sales. So if you're a creator or entrepreneur who wants your podcast to support your business and not just your brand, you're going to want to listen closely. How small can a podcast be and still drive meaningful revenue?

Molly Ruland [00:00:57]:

My podcast is a perfect example. I think we probably have like 500 downloads on the whole thing for like 70 episodes or something. I don't know. But no, it's not that many episodes. I'm lying. But I did like 16 in the last season. 16, 18 episodes. And I mean, maybe a couple hundred downloads, but I did $60,000 of the business.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:17]:

Welcome to the Creator's Adventure, where we interview creators from around the world, hearing their stories about growing a business. Hey, everyone. I'm Brian McAnulty, the founder of Heights Platform. Let's get into. Molly. Welcome to the show.

Molly Ruland [00:01:35]:

Thanks for having me, Brian.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:37]:

Yeah. So first question, I like to ask this to every guest. What is the biggest thing that either you did, you are doing that has helped you to achieve the freedom to do what you enjoy?

Molly Ruland [00:01:49]:

Ooh. The biggest thing, I would say, just lean into who you are, Lean into your strengths, you know, and listen to yourself. I think we move very quickly. We don't very often get time to think about what it is that we want to do. And I like to tease people. I'm like, you're not in high school. You don't have to play the clarinet anymore. So if you hate your job or if there's something that you don't like about your job or your life, you get to change it, right? There's no mom or dad telling you that you have to do this anymore.

Molly Ruland [00:02:15]:

And so really taking ownership of that, understanding that you're the captain of your own ship allows you to then more accurately look at what it is you want to do versus, like, maybe what you should do or what's available or what you've trained to do or what your education is in or what everything is pointing you in that way. But, like, sometimes you just don't want to play the clarinet anymore, and that's okay. You just put the clarinet down and do something else.

Bryan McAnulty [00:02:40]:

Was there, like, a specific moment for you where you realized that, or was it. Was it difficult or easy for you to realize that? Was it related to a clarinet or

Molly Ruland [00:02:50]:

you're, like, very focused on this clarinet? No. Although I did grow up Irish and had to do a lot of things I didn't want to do, like playing the tin whistle in the concertina and wearing dresses and dancing. And I, you know, how to do a lot of those things. But, you know, I ran. I've owned a multimedia company for 25 years, and I, in 2018, closed a company that I had been running for, you know, 21 years. 20 years. And I just. It was wildly successful from the outside, but it was not from the inside.

Molly Ruland [00:03:20]:

It was me pushing a boulder up a mountainside. And the second I let go of it, it was going to roll back over me and everybody below me. And so I really had a. The universe sat me down, you know, and was like, you, you know, gave me a lot of signs, which I was not super keen on listening to. And then the universe sat me down and it was like, you know, if you want to continue on this planet, you have to make some changes. And that's what I did. And so I closed that company. And nobody understood why.

Molly Ruland [00:03:49]:

But what I did is I just reformed that company in a whole new way. I joked that I, Marie Kondo my life and I thought about, excuse me, what brings me joy and what doesn't. What are the parts of the multimedia that I liked and what are the things that I didn't? Well, that was easy to eliminate the things that I didn't, okay, what do I like? And then what am I missing? And then who's holding me back? And so I reverse over my life and I was like, you gotta go and you gotta go, and there's nothing under anybody's seats. You know what I mean? Like, you're responsible for yourself. And that was the greatest thing because in my deep desire and will and hard work to provide for a lot of people, I was only enabling them to not be their best self. And so I thought I was helping by Doing all these things and building studios and giving opportunities, but people just, they have to find that for themselves. And I had to find it for myself too. So that was kind of the reiteration.

Molly Ruland [00:04:42]:

I closed that company. People were shocked. I managed 160 artists. I had a three story building. I had, you know, 18 employees. And I closed that company and I formed this new company and just really dialed in on what it is that I love, what I don't, you know, and now instead of, you know, working 18 hour days and not having enough to take an Uber home, you know, I live in Costa Rica, you know, I mean, it's, it's a different situation,

Bryan McAnulty [00:05:08]:

you know, so I'm, I'm curious, was there, like, any specific realization for you related to podcasting and like, how it could be more than content and be something that can drive business growth?

Molly Ruland [00:05:22]:

Well, I've always been a connector, and so I've always been about, like, you know, if I'm excited about something, I want everybody else to know about it. And that was at the crux of this media company. And to me, I've always been kind of obsessed with like, pirate radio and the democratization of information and podcasting. You know, our tagline is listening is the revolution. And I mean, that's never been more appropriate than it is now as we're watching legacy media companies crumble and then groups like Midas Touch are crushing everybody's numbers, not following any of the rules, Right? So I've always just sort of been obsessed with this idea of freedom of the press and freedom of information, but it's always about relationships. Everything in life is about relationships. I turned 50 last year, a couple months ago, and it gives you this great amount of clarity. But I've been saying this for a long time.

Molly Ruland [00:06:07]:

Your entire life is based on your relationships, personally and professionally, right? So to me, podcasting is all about building relationships, sitting across the table from somebody, like finding that common ground, you know what I mean? And then moving forward together and not so much about what audience can you tap into, because I don't think that's the answer. I think it's more about, like, getting to know Brian, hanging out with Brian. How can I help you? You know what I mean? What can I do for you? How can I hopefully provide a little bit of good stuff here for your listeners? Right? It's not about what you can do for me, it's about, like, what can I do for you? And, and then I'm. And then, who knows, maybe I'll see you at A podcast convention in a few months or, you know, you just. You never know. Right? Like, you never know. Some sales calls I've been on, I've turned out to be some of my best friends. Right.

Molly Ruland [00:06:51]:

So anything is possible. And so I think, you know, you have to be really intentional with your podcast and what it is that you want to do with it and how it is that you want to make money, you know, while also being true to yourself. So it's kind of a fine line in there.

Bryan McAnulty [00:07:08]:

Yeah, that's a great point. I think you're right that it is overlooked the. The value in that and the importance of that. And, like, thinking of my own podcast, I can definitely see how that's true. Like, there's been people that I've talked to on the podcast, and because of that, I had some other connection with somebody else and said, oh, yeah, I know this person because we talked on this. Now. Now we have a deeper connection there because of knowing that mutual person or somebody came on the podcast. And then later we realized, okay, well, we can do a live workshop together.

Bryan McAnulty [00:07:38]:

And, yeah, so the relationships through that are. Can be more important and more impactful than whatever the individual episode actually is.

Molly Ruland [00:07:48]:

Agree. Because, you know, like, if you're selling a course or something, it's one thing for you to say how great it is, but, like, if another person stands up in a meeting and says, oh, this is the best course, man, you got to take it. You're going to get a lot more signups. Right. So it's always about the relationship and not just selling to people, but getting people excited about what it is that you're doing, too, and then finding that common ground there where you can both benefit from it instead of just, like, selling yourself, you know?

Bryan McAnulty [00:08:14]:

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's maybe obvious to people who have been on podcasts and been doing this for a while, but for those who haven't, like, something that I found is, like, we get more customers, like, without a doubt, from me appearing on other people's podcasts rather than from our own podcast. And it's not only because, well, then they get to learn about me and then. And everything, rather than me sharing about a guest, but it's also because the. The host of those other podcasts, if we have a good relationship and everything, then they'll go out and tell even somebody individually, hey, yeah, I talked to this guy, Brian, and he runs this. This course in community platform. You should try it because it does this and this, this, and so, yeah, and that's a really powerful thing,

Molly Ruland [00:09:04]:

relationships. It's always. It's always, you know, when somebody else says how great you are, you know, they've done all the heavy lifting for you, and you just never know. Right? You know, you go on somebody's podcast and maybe they have a whole community like you do. Maybe they have, you know, they have a lot of other resources that you're not thinking about. And so often people are thinking about, like, tapping into their audience. It's like, no, no, no. Nurture the relationship, because that person has their audience and they can direct the audience.

Molly Ruland [00:09:30]:

You're not going to direct the audience. They are. Right, so, like, nurture the relationship with them and let them do the heavy lifting, but because they want to, because they like you. Not. Not because you're manipulating them, but because you were your true, authentic self, whatever that is. And some people won't like you, and that's totally okay. You know what I mean? But the ones that do like you will really like you and then want to tell everybody else about your course, your program, your whatever else it is. And those are the people that really move your.

Molly Ruland [00:09:57]:

Your bottom line sometimes.

Bryan McAnulty [00:09:59]:

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. So you've helped produce over a thousand podcast episodes. What would you say separates podcasts that are, like, actually generating sales or some kind of positive impact versus the ones that just kind of stay a hobby?

Molly Ruland [00:10:14]:

Intention and strategy, you know, be very, very clear. I think we're in this society where it's like, more is more, and that's not always the case. It's like, what's gonna go viral? What do people want? Well, don't worry about what people want. Like, talk about something that you can get excited about that you can be authentic about and passionate about and have experience about and lean in on that, because that's gonna be better content for people. I had a meeting with a guy last week, and he's, like, wildly connected in the sports world and, like, European sports, and he's like, I don't know. I think I just want to do a hobby. I'm like, well, then don't hire me, to be honest. You know what I mean? You're just gonna waste your money.

Molly Ruland [00:10:53]:

You're gonna. You know what I mean? If you don't go all in, then you're just sort of gonna waste your money. So I would say, like, go in with a strategy. Why do you wanna have a podcast? Is it just because, like, your business coach told you she'd have a podcast? Well, let me tell you, if you wanna hide a secret, record it and put it on a podcast and no one will ever find out about it. Right? Like, you know how hard it is to get downloads, right? Like, you could literally put the most classified information in a single episode and put it to the public, and no one will ever, ever hear it. It takes so much work in sharing, creating shorts, doing other things. So you got to be really intentional about it. And I always say, like, outsource, you know, outsource, and be very clear about what your goals are and be very professional about it, you know, so if you're selling courses aimed at moms and have a podcast about moms, you know, like, be.

Molly Ruland [00:11:39]:

You know, lead the people to the information that they're going to want and do a really good job and do the show notes and do the key takeaways and do the blog post and do all the things, do all the SEO stuff. Because, like, a lot of people think social media is it, but it's really about SEO. You know what I mean? Like, it has so much to do with everything. So just make sure that all your content is optimized, but really lean into what it is that you're doing. Right. Like, I have a couple different podcasts. I have a political podcast because that's what I'm passionate about right now. I don't make any money from that.

Molly Ruland [00:12:09]:

I don't. You know, that's not the goal. Right. My other podcast is about content marketing, and I interview CMOs about content marketing because I'm curious what they're going to do next. What are you. How are you navigating this content marketing world next quarter? Right? And that's interesting to me. And then they see how I work and they see the website and they go, oh, you're really great. We actually want to do a podcast or we want to get booked on podcasts.

Molly Ruland [00:12:29]:

Let's talk. So it's very, very intentional. Right? But if you're selling to the masses, then create content that the masses want that aligns with your course or your product or whatever it is that you're doing. Don't have a podcast about resilience if you own insurance agency. You know, it just doesn't make any sense.

Bryan McAnulty [00:12:49]:

Yeah, yeah. I'm like, actually, so the creator's adventure is not my first podcast. The first podcast is technically a failure, I would say. It helped me learn a lot. We. We had some small successes that at the time, we got on, like, smart TVs in Europe back in, like, 2010 and 2011, when. When there was like, yeah, that's huge. Not ways for like video podcasts to get distribution.

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:14]:

So we got a tiny bit of attention through that. But there the incentives and things were not aligned. And like, we were essentially a. A design and software product studio at that time. And the podcast was kind of about design, but it's also about interviewing entrepreneurs in different places of the world. And it was also, we made it too hard on ourselves in order to create the content. And so we created the challenge to create the content because we were actually traveling to different countries to interview these people. And the production and the editing, there was a whole lot more involved in the whole thing.

Bryan McAnulty [00:13:52]:

And then at the end of it all, it was cool. I love talking with the different entrepreneurs. I think other people might think it was cool too. But the audience that we had who are designers, they may not actually care about that. So it didn't actually align with that. And. And it didn't really align with what we get as clients. And so it just.

Bryan McAnulty [00:14:13]:

As a business model, it didn't make sense because there was no reason for us to invest the time into it that it would actually take.

Molly Ruland [00:14:20]:

And a lot of people do that. You know, they're like, well, what do people want to hear? Don't worry about what they. Be yourself. Talk about what you want to talk about, but make sure that it relates to the business.

Bryan McAnulty [00:14:29]:

That. That's another thing that, like, we found out too, because we had like multiple segments where we talk about like news or trends or something happening, then the interview and then back to that and quickly realized that no one cares about the other sections or whatever. We're not going to be the best, most up to date, like trending news source. And we weren't trying to be. So why would we talk about that if the show is supposed to be telling the story of a specific guest? And so with the creator's adventure here, made the whole thing a lot easier by being able to do it remote and by just focusing on the story of the guest.

Molly Ruland [00:15:06]:

And I mean, at the end of the day, like, people are going to buy from you. They're not going to necessarily buy your product, right? Like I'm a ridiculous person, right? Like, it's early, I haven't had coffee yet, so I'm pretty much under wraps right now. But I'm ridiculous 24 hours a day. I'm ridiculous when I'm doing keynotes and I'm ridiculous on sales. I am who I am. It took a long time to bake this cake. And it is what it is, you know what I mean? And like that, that works for me because people are buying from me. They're like, oh, okay.

Molly Ruland [00:15:32]:

Like they see me at a keynote and some people walk away and they go, I'm going to pray for her. And then other people are like, I freaking love you. Right? Like there's no middle ground. And that's okay because those are the people that I want to buy from me because they're, they're not, they're. If I drop an F on, they're not going to like clutch their pearls, they're going to join in with me. You know, it's a different type of breed. And so I just am who I am. I have no interest in trying to be something different.

Molly Ruland [00:15:55]:

Different. And when you're selling courses and stuff, that information is available on Google, it's available on AI, right? They're buying it from you because they like you, they like your delivery, they like the way you talk. Maybe it's something subtle that you have a microphone and other course creators don't. It like it doesn't. You never know what it is about you that resonates, right? Like I was looking at some of my analytics and like 65 year old women are my demographic right now. Like, they love me, right? I think it's because I'm like, ah, burn down the patriarchy. And they're like, hell yeah, girl, you know, but like, that's who my demographic is because they like the way that I talk, they like that I'm unapologetic, they like that I'm a feminist, they like that I'm anti fat, they like all these things about me and so they're going to buy from me. In fact, a woman who's taken a couple courses from me hit me up and said, are you teaching anything? I just like hanging out with you and I love your presentations and you're always so generous and informative with your information.

Molly Ruland [00:16:47]:

And I was like, that's the greatest compliment I've ever gotten. But that's like what your listeners should remember. Like, they're buying from you. Yes, they want that information, but they're buying from you. So lean into it. If you're ridiculous, be ridiculous. If you're not, don't be. There's plenty of people who like, I've done keynotes before where like half the room look like a deer in headlights and the other half are like feverishly taking notes, you know what I mean? Like, you can't win them all and you're not going to.

Molly Ruland [00:17:11]:

But like leaning into who you are and showing that Personality in your podcast is important. So talk about stuff you care about. Because, like, even my podcast camp content, I'm talking about content marketing, but I've been doing it for 24 years. I'm genuinely interested what a $20 million a year company is doing for content next year. I'm not faking the funk. I'm curious, right? And then CMOs marketing people tend to be smart asses like me. We're not really buttoned up people, we're marketing people, right? So they get my jokes. I turn everybody into a cartoon character, right? It aligns with who I am.

Molly Ruland [00:17:45]:

I'm not trying to be, like, buttoned up. I have a real or fake speed round on my podcast where I list off podcast names and I guess if they're real or fake, it's the dumbest thing ever. People love it. And I get these guys who are like CMOs of $50 million a year companies who are like, this is so much fun. I'm into it, you know, and at the end when I hit stop, right? They always say, molly, this was so much fun. Tell me more about your rates and services. I was looking at your website and I think I have two clients working you, right? Every single time. Because I'm talking about what it is that I know, which is content marketing.

Molly Ruland [00:18:17]:

I'm having a good time because that's who I am, right? And I'm talking to people who also have a good time because you have to have a sense of humor to be in marketing. Like, you just have to, right? Like, you're the least valued, you know, budget in the whole company and the only one moving the needle, right? So, like, you have to have a sense of humor. So that podcast for me is fun, right? And then. And it led to great amounts of business and the collateral benefits of, hey, Molly, I heard you on this podcast. Or hey, Molly, we're launching a podcast and we'd like you to be the host, you know, which I found shocking. I was like, really? Have you listened to me? Like, I don't know if you really want that, but really being yourself. Because people buy courses from the creators, right? They're not just buying the information, they're buying the support, the resources, the experience, the delivery. You know, that's really what they're.

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:07]:

Exactly.

Molly Ruland [00:19:07]:

Yeah.

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:07]:

I. I see so many creators that reach out to us and they have some kind of concern now in this world of AI. Well, isn't. Can't people find this on ChatGPT or something like that? And I always tell them that they're buying because of your unique message and your unique experience. And like you said, you gave that example. Like, they want to be involved in some kind of community or program with you. And so don't try to say, like, oh, I see some guy who maybe they're kind of my competitor. Should I copy them? Absolutely not.

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:35]:

Like, your value proposition is that you're you and nobody else's.

Molly Ruland [00:19:41]:

And you. You never know, like, how much money they're putting in ads, how much money they started with. How much money, right? Like, it's so easy to compare yourself, right? Like, I had a friend last year as a coach who was like, I want to start a podcast. And I'm like, dude, you don't like, no. Like, this is like, go get some clients, girl. Like, don't. Like, this is the worst thing you could do. And she's like, well, my coach has a podcast.

Molly Ruland [00:20:01]:

And I'm like, yeah, but she was like, 4 million followers. Yeah, well, she does it from her phone. I said, yeah, but she probably, you know, started the company with a half a million. She probably put a quarter, you know, 50k in the ads every month for the first. You know, you don't see what's behind that. And like, yeah, if you're pushing your crappy audio from your phone podcast to 100,000 people through paid ads, and sure you're going to get some downloads, but that does not mean that you should duplicate those efforts. Like, you don't know what they have behind the scenes, and they could be faking the funk. All those numbers.

Molly Ruland [00:20:34]:

You see. Well, how much did they spend on Facebook ads to get in front of that many people? Like, everything that glitters is in gold. You know what I mean? You should never compare yourself to any other content creator because most of it's bullshit, to be honest.

Bryan McAnulty [00:20:48]:

Yeah, I think that's great advice. What is maybe a mistake that people make when they're reaching out to potential guests.

Molly Ruland [00:20:57]:

Lying. Don't lie. Don't say, I love your podcast unless you actually love your podcast.

Bryan McAnulty [00:21:03]:

Yep, I got get those almost daily, all the time.

Molly Ruland [00:21:06]:

You're like, bro, come on, man. Like, let's not start this thing off with a lie. You know what I mean? I just got an email, right? That's like, we're a big fan of this service yours. We've been using it for six months. I'm like, that's a $3,000 setup fee to launch a podcast. You have not been using that service for six months. And does. That's not how that.

Molly Ruland [00:21:23]:

You know what I Mean, like, delete block report as scam, right? Like I am. I don't, like in this day, don't use AI and don't lie, you know, and, you know, just be yourself. Just be authentic, right? Like, you know, I know with my podcast, I leaned with a joke. I did outreach on LinkedIn and I said, everybody, Andy Warhol promised me 15 minutes of fame, but it hasn't happened yet. Will you be on my podcast instead? And I'm reaching out to marketers. And so of course they go, okay, I see what you're doing here, but I'm intrigued. What's next? You know what I mean? And then I go, okay, I want you to be on my podcast. There's no sales page, there's no nothing.

Molly Ruland [00:22:03]:

And then they go, okay. And there's a link right there for them to book themselves on my podcast. So nine times out of 10, I would send that outreach. People would read it, then they would get the next message, they would click on the link, they would book themselves on my podcast and not even say a word to me, and then show up on time. And those were some of the best interviews because those people are busy and they don't have a lot of time for back and forth. And I made it really easy for them. So I think that's the biggest thing. Make it easy for people.

Molly Ruland [00:22:33]:

Send out a calendar link. Don't say, do these four times work with you? What do you, what is this, 1992? Send a calendly, for crying out loud. Like, all of that stuff. Like, be more organized. Send follow ups. Like, make sure it's on the calendar. Make sure the address for the event, you know, the riverside or the zoom call is in the location of the calendar. I mean, like, very basic stuff, but a lot of podcasters don't do that.

Molly Ruland [00:22:55]:

So just like, you know, the one thing I say a lot, I'll say it again. The best way to show people how you work is to show people how you work. Are you selling a course? And that course automatically gets an email thing. And then they get this, and they get these bonuses. Well, your podcast process should be the same. Clever outreach. Okay, Andy Warhol, I get it. All right, let me see what she's pushing.

Molly Ruland [00:23:14]:

Open the link. Boom. It's on my website. It says, hey, thanks for being on, agreeing to maybe being on the show. Here's the process. You know, pick a time, answer these seven questions, here's how you can check out the podcast, let me know if you have any questions. And they go, okay, well, that was easy enough. It shows up on their calendar.

Molly Ruland [00:23:31]:

What are they going to do? Inevitably, they're going to look at the rest of my website because they're already there. And they're going to go, oh, wow, they do podcasts this, they that. So when they show up, right, like, they're ready to go, right? I didn't. And I asked them for their bio, I asked them for the greatest professional achievement, their greatest personal achievement. I asked them for a headshot, and then that's about it. Maybe one or two other questions. So everything that I need to prepare a killer introduction, I already have. So I'm literally like, boom.

Molly Ruland [00:24:00]:

Oh, Tom Jones just booked for Tuesday at 10. I go in, I pull all his stuff, I write up my little bio, I come up with my questions, I go into this thing gangbusters, you know what I mean? And that person already has had a good experience because it's been easy. It wasn't a bunch of back and forth. I didn't suggest times. I just gave them a link. It was very clear they could make their decision on their own. And now they've also looked at my company. It works so well, and so many people complicate things, and you know what I mean? I think the biggest mistake is everybody tries to do stuff for free.

Molly Ruland [00:24:32]:

They try to get free software, free audio, free editing, free this, free, free that. Like, you gotta let go of that, man. Get the $15 calendly. Like, your effort to be free is going to turn people off and you're gonna lose great interviews over that, that little feature, you know what I mean? So I think just show people how you work. Because if somebody has an experience like that on their podcast, they're gonna go, man, Brian, that was awesome. Like, you. You sent me very clear instructions last night about Riverside and how it works. You sent me questions that I could prepare my.

Molly Ruland [00:25:04]:

I came into this like, all right, these guys are on Riverside. I listen to a couple episodes. I'm prepared for this episode. You thought about me in advance. You told me what to expect. Like, I already know that you're professional, you're organized, you're polite, and you're experienced. Like, those are great places to start. You know what I mean? So I think everybody should look at their podcast in that exact same way that, like, this is an opportunity to show people what it's going to be like to work with you.

Molly Ruland [00:25:28]:

So you sign up for a podcast. That's what it's like. Then they can say, hey, listen, I just had this, you know, girl on my show this lady on my show, Molly, and she has this great course I'm gonna recommend. You know, you gotta check her out. It was so professional. Everything was easy. You know, go check out her community. You know, that's how those kind of things work.

Molly Ruland [00:25:45]:

So that's my biggest advice, is be organized. Because the second I'm, like, invited to stuff and there's no link or there's no follow, I'm not rebooking, man. Like, I had somebody cancel 27 minutes before an interview the other day, and it's a big podcast. And he said, hey, we have a big client onboarding this morning. And I said, I drove three hours yesterday to be in my home studio while my DSLR and my good microphone for this recording, I will not be rescheduling. You know what I mean? Like, why the hell would I want to form a relationship with somebody who has no value for my time at all? 27 minutes for a meeting. Shit happens. I totally get it.

Molly Ruland [00:26:23]:

27 minutes before a recording, where you expect me to show up prepared or on a microphone and good camera. Wildly unprofessional. I don't care how many downloads you have. I don't care if that was fucking part of my. I don't care if that's Tony Robbins himself. I wouldn't go on that show just out of, like, I don't want to form a relationship with somebody like that. You know what I mean? So I think really being intentional, like, how you present yourself to the world and the people you're potentially working with matters from the very beginning of that interaction to the end.

Bryan McAnulty [00:26:52]:

Yeah, yeah, it's a great point. We saw that. You often describe branded podcasts as modern networking. How would you say, like, this is different from, like, traditional networking or, like, cold outreach or something like that?

Molly Ruland [00:27:05]:

We're forced to listen to each other. I mean, you know, you know. Well, because it's more relevant, right? Like, you know, I'm interviewing CMOs. I'm asking about what they're going to do next quarter. Like, it's all. That's much more interesting than, like, cold outreach or those networking meetings that you show up to every Tuesday and say the same thing. You know, it just doesn't really work. Like, you know, to me, it just boils down to relationships, right? You know what I mean? Like, it's all about relationships, right? Like, next time I know somebody who wants to launch a course, I'm gonna be like, oh, you should hit up Brian.

Molly Ruland [00:27:41]:

And he's got this great platform, you know what I mean? So I think there's just a lot more value in that. Even if, like, we never directly work together. I just think it's like a. The Mycelium network, like, under the soil, right? Like, you're just forming all these touch points with people, and eventually, you know, I've been in the industry a long time, right. It's a very small industry. It's a very small industry.

Bryan McAnulty [00:28:04]:

You know, I'm curious, like, do you think, is that how people should think about it? That, like, let's say they don't have a big podcast or they don't have a big audience? Should they think of it as, like, I'm doing this to build these relationships, and the fact that other people get to watch this conversation that I had is just a bonus.

Molly Ruland [00:28:22]:

It's exactly how you should think about it and then nurture that relationship. Hey, thanks for coming on the show. You know, Molly, you know what I mean? Hey, you mentioned that, you know, some content creators or some course creators. Here's a link to my platform. Here's an affiliate link. You know what I mean? Nurture that relationship. Thanks for coming on the show. You know, I mean, you're the first one to drop an F bomb.

Molly Ruland [00:28:42]:

You know, whatever. Whatever it is. Ah, you know, my bad. You know, like, you know, it's all about that relationship, Right? Because, you know, I don't necessarily know if any of your people will ever call me. Right? But, like, I'm thinking about how what you do could help the people that I care about and that I work with. Right? And so to me, like, that's how all this stuff happens. It's like SEO, like, straight, cold, inbound. And then everything else is relationships.

Bryan McAnulty [00:29:07]:

Yeah, yeah, because. Yeah, exactly. Like, somebody. Somebody might email us this week or next week and say, hey, you know, I'm trying to. I'm trying to get this podcast going and get more involved in that. And then I think of you. Oh, I just talked to Molly, actually, about this. You should connect with her.

Molly Ruland [00:29:24]:

It's a win, win. And a lot of people, like, think that, you know, this back to this. More is more. And you got to go viral, and you have to have. Listen, going viral is a curse. I've gone viral a few times recently. It's the worst thing that could ever happen to you. It totally, like, dysregulates your nervous system.

Molly Ruland [00:29:39]:

It torpedoes your entire day. Your notifications are going crazy. 70% of them are bots saying horrible things. So you have to go in there and hide and block, and there's nothing Fun about going viral. And guess how many sales I got? 0. Right. So this idea that like, you want to be bigger, a lot of time

Bryan McAnulty [00:29:57]:

it's, it's the wrong audience actually that just ends up seeing you at that point.

Molly Ruland [00:30:02]:

100%. I've gone viral. I went viral once because of people moving to Costa Rica then. And then I went viral right after that for politics. And I know some people were like, whoa, I just wanted to move to Costa Rica. I didn't know I was signing up for this. You know what I mean? But like, yeah, they're not, they're not really my people, you know what I mean? And for most people, you know, one new client a month or two new clients a month would make a drastic difference in your bottom line at the end of the year. Now, if you're selling courses that's a little bit different, but like, if you were selling 25 courses every month consistently, that would make a big difference.

Molly Ruland [00:30:39]:

And a lot of people are like, I want to sell a thousand. We'll start with 25, start with five a week, you know, start smaller because that's where business happens. You know, you look at multi million dollar companies and you add up how many clients they actually have and it can be surprisingly low. You know what I mean?

Bryan McAnulty [00:30:57]:

We were just looking at one of our customers recently who is just about to hit a million dollars through their courses on heights. And I think people always, always feel like I need so many members or students or whatever. And this creator, they've got a thousand students, so they're charging about like 800 lifetime value. It's not that much. It's reasonable to sell a program for around a thousand dollars or slightly less. And then you only need a thousand students to have a million dollar business. So people don't need as many customers, I think, as they assume they do.

Molly Ruland [00:31:35]:

It's kind of a myth and a trap. Like you have to get in front of somebody. No, you don't. You just need one or two people to buy from you every day or every week or every month or whatever it is. And it's really helpful to reverse engineer that. Oh, okay. You know, like I know if you make $84,000 a month, that's a million dollars a year. So what do you have to do to make $84,000 a month? Well, what is that weekly? Okay, well how much? You know that, you know, then you're like, okay, I have to make 20,000 do a week.

Molly Ruland [00:32:03]:

Okay, well how many courses do I have to sell? Wait, that's only 20. Then you're like, hold on. You know what I mean? Like, if you get in the right community, you could sell 500 courses, right? So, you know, so, like, when you start looking at it that way, it becomes so much more manageable. Instead of, like, I need people on the Internet to like me. Like, man, that is such a trap right now. Like, it really is.

Bryan McAnulty [00:32:30]:

Yeah. So let's say somebody's on board with this idea now they don't have a massive audience. How small can a podcast be and still drive meaningful revenue?

Molly Ruland [00:32:42]:

My podcast is a perfect example. I think we probably have, like 500 downloads on the whole thing for, like, 70 episodes or something. I don't know. But no, it's not that many episodes. I'm lying. But I did, like 16 in the last season. 16, 18 episodes. And I mean, maybe a couple hundred downloads, but I.

Molly Ruland [00:33:01]:

But I did $60,000 of the business.

Bryan McAnulty [00:33:04]:

Wow.

Molly Ruland [00:33:05]:

So I don't really. I don't really care how many downloads. You know what I mean? It's irrelevant to me. Right. And those people have referred other people. So if I really sat down and, like, really did the math on, like, what opportunities I talk about, like, collateral benefits of podcasting. It's like, maybe you get asked to speak at a keynote thing, or maybe you get asked to present at, like, a women's networking event, or maybe, you know, like, other things come in. But I mean, there are options.

Molly Ruland [00:33:31]:

Like, my company, we will do out. We will identify your ideal guest profile, which is, like, somebody who can move the needle for your business. So if you're a course creator, maybe it's people with communities, whatever. We figure all that out. We do all the outreach for you, we tee them up for your podcast, we produce the podcast, and then we can even run ads on your podcast to guarantee downloads and guarantee subscribers. So it just really depends. So, like, a company, big corporate company, will spend 7K a month on a podcast, but they're also getting 20,000 downloads a month, and now they're in the top 10 manufacturing podcasts. You know, those things.

Molly Ruland [00:34:12]:

And like, the decision makers at the company want. Want those vanity metrics, right? So if they're doing four episodes, right? At 12amonth, that's, you know, whatever, 48 episodes. No, 56 episodes, whatever the number is, right? 56 episodes a year, that's 56 interviews. That's potentially 56 new relationships. Then we're with people in their field. When we're doing outreach on LinkedIn, we're sending out 100 messages, but only 10 people respond. But those other 90 people are still now on your connection list. So now you're building your LinkedIn profile with the right people, right? You know, every time I do a new season, I always get more marketers on my LinkedIn feed, which makes LinkedIn way better, honestly.

Molly Ruland [00:34:53]:

You know, I'd much rather listen to marketers and, like, thought leadership all day long. So you're building your profile on. On LinkedIn, whether they come on your podcast or not. You're having those relationships and you're getting in front of people, but the secret sauce is really like, when, well, what are you doing with that relationship? Are you following up with them? Are you saying, thanks for having me on the show, by the way, I'd like to make this introduction or can you make this intro, you know, nurturing it? Just like if you got on a sales call, right? If somebody hit you up on the Internet and booked a discovery call and they wanted to know about whatever it is you do and you had a conversation with them and then never followed up with them. That's what most people do with podcasts. And, like, the follow up is where it's at, man. You know, people that gift of reciprocity. When people come on your show, you do a great introduction for them.

Molly Ruland [00:35:41]:

They valued heard. Like you. You prepared. You sent me in from. Okay, you're not going to know. Show me you've prepared for this. You've put thought into this in advance of our meeting. I'm also showing up, like, ready to have a good conversation, respecting your time.

Molly Ruland [00:35:56]:

You know what I mean? Like, you know, you can. You know, that's when that relationship forms. So, you know, if you do that right, then the conversation is good. You're talking about something that's relevant to both of you. You have excitement about it. That's going to translate to the listeners as well, and they're going to enjoy that conversation a whole lot more than if you were worried about what they wanted to hear instead of the person across the table.

Bryan McAnulty [00:36:21]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. All excellent advice. I'm curious, can you go back to. Just to say it again for everybody? Because I think it's so important and it connects everything you're saying about the value and the relationships and how the relationships are the benefit of the podcast and the viewers. That kind of. See, that conversation is almost a bonus of. Can you say how many. Approximately how many views did you have on your podcast in total and approximately how much revenue did those views generate?

Molly Ruland [00:36:50]:

I mean, the whole podcast has like 500 downloads. It's like 449. It's embarrassingly low, you know what I mean? For a lot of episodes, you know, and the revenue was 60k from that one episode. 16 episodes.

Bryan McAnulty [00:37:04]:

Wow. Yeah. So I think that's an excellent example, because people will hear. I think more commonly now, creators are. Are maybe not admitting, but are teaching that, hey, actually, you don't need to have this massive, massive following or audience in order to build a business from that. And I think that's a. A crazy conversion rate, because it's not even a direct conversion rate. It's.

Bryan McAnulty [00:37:28]:

It's about. Yeah, you got about 500 views in the podcast, but the views aren't exactly what turns into revenue. It's because of the relationships a lot of times with the guests. And even if you're not in the. With a business model where you would sell directly to the guest, I think there's a lot of podcasts where it makes sense or that ends up being something that could be the case, you know, like, I could potentially be your client, you could potentially be my client. We're here getting to know each other, but at the same time, that relationship then can lead to collaborations and other things and. And who knows what.

Molly Ruland [00:38:04]:

It's a world of opportunity, right? And people want to work with the people they like and the people they get along with. Right. If I did a podcast about, like, GitHub and like, data mapping, like, I would not go over as well. Like, those are engineers. They don't have the same sense of humor. It would. I would not land in that room, you know, but you get me talking to a bunch of marketers, I'm speaking their language, we're going to laugh about the same things, we're going to understand the same things. We're going to have more camaraderie there.

Molly Ruland [00:38:31]:

It's going to make more sense. They're going to like me. They're going to. When I hang, when I hit stop on the record button, they're going to go, man, that was a lot of fun. You're. You're crazy. You know what I mean? Or you're funnier. I was looking on LinkedIn and you actually know my buddy, so.

Molly Ruland [00:38:43]:

And so it's like. It's like we already have this warmth between us. You know what I mean? But it makes sense in that audience because that's who I am. That's why I sell to. And I mind you, I'm not selling, selling to any of them. I just want them to think of me when they're like, man, I went on this podcast. And the whole thing was great. The outreach was great, the invite was great, the recording was great.

Molly Ruland [00:39:04]:

The team sent me an email same day saying, thanks for coming on the podcast. A week later, I got another email saying, thanks for being on the podcast. I got tagged on LinkedIn. My buddy I was playing golf with mentioned that he heard me on the. You know what I mean? Of course, anytime anybody says podcast, they're gonna think, molly. Send them to Molly. Send them to Molly. Well, I'm interviewing people that are like, fractional CMOs.

Molly Ruland [00:39:26]:

Fractional CMOs have multiple clients, so now there's multiple opportunities for that. Right? So it's like, you gotta be intentional. And so you can. You can reverse engineer that with anybody from dentists to insurance salesmen to course creators. It's just, you have to think about, okay, well, who are those people? And then who is hanging out with those people? You know what I mean? Like, who has access to that same demographic of people? And those are the podcasts you should go on, or that's the podcast you should have, and those are the people you should interview. You know what I mean? So that they can go, hey, list serve of 2000 moms. I just met this amazing course creator who talks about boundaries with ADHD kids in elementary school. And like, I know this is per.

Molly Ruland [00:40:08]:

Like, that's right. Like, that's a very narrow audience where there's a whole bunch of moms out there with ADHD kids, ADHD kids in elementary school that are like, oh, my God, yes, it's exactly what I.

Bryan McAnulty [00:40:18]:

Right.

Molly Ruland [00:40:18]:

So it's about, like, getting in front of the right people, not getting, like, I don't sell podcasting to everybody because it's expensive and it's time consuming, and you have to be intentional and clear about your goals. So I'm not trying to convince anybody of why you need me. I want people to, like, know that they want a podcast and then decide to hire me because they like my brand of whatever it is that I'm selling.

Bryan McAnulty [00:40:41]:

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And going back to what we talked about earlier of, like, how many customers do you actually need to build a not only sustainable but very successful business? It's just much less, I think, than people assume. I think most people don't actually have the ambition to. To have. To have a business that has hundreds of thousands of customers or something like this. And so if that's the case for. For whoever is watching or listening to this right now, I would say that you don't have to. You don't have to worry about.

Bryan McAnulty [00:41:13]:

Like, how can I educate a customer and make them feel that they need to do this? Forget about all of those customers. You can have an incredibly thriving business only targeting the customers who already want exactly what you have, who already know they need exactly what you have.

Molly Ruland [00:41:30]:

Exactly. And SEO and podcasting are great places to do that because they're seeking that information.

Bryan McAnulty [00:41:37]:

Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we, we get way more customers through SEO or things related to SEO and the long term content bringing in, in these leads rather than like a social media post. Like, we're barely active on any social media just because it doesn't convert in the same way.

Molly Ruland [00:41:54]:

It doesn't. And then like, I have a friend who's a, like coach and fitness and weight loss and she'll be posting about like, are you ready to hit those goals? And I'm like, girl, I'm fighting a fascist regime. I don't want to talk about weight loss right now. Like, I'm not ready for like, it feels more like judgment where she shifted her stuff and was like, are you ready to break free from like your old life? Like, are you looking at the future and curious what's next? Here's some solutions that's like, well, yeah, I can relate to that. You know what I mean? But I don't, like, you know, when I'm feeling fat and want to lose weight, I'm going to get on my phone and look for that. I don't want to be told I'm fat and I need to lose weight in the middle of a Tuesday. You know what I mean? And so like a lot of these courses, it's addressing those problems. So it's like, yeah, find the people that are looking for those solutions to those, those problems instead of trying to convince other people they have those problems, then you have the solution.

Bryan McAnulty [00:42:47]:

Yeah, definitely. Real quick. I'm sure we could talk about this a lot, but if you had to give a quick answer to somebody who's concerned of is AI affecting podcast in any way, what would you say to them?

Molly Ruland [00:43:02]:

No, because everybody knows AI Slop and AI, you just, you glaze over when you see AI. And like, I use AI in my business a lot for like taking lots of information and making sense of it, transcripts, things like that. I don't use generative AI because it doesn't sound like me. You know what I mean? I write a lot. And when you, when you read my writing, you can hear my voice, you know what I mean? Like 100%. Right? Because I'm a, I'm A smart ass. And so you can hear that coming through in my writing. And AI cannot fake that funk.

Molly Ruland [00:43:36]:

And nobody wants an AI coach except for the people who are going to AI coach apps and let them stay there. But, like, AI isn't going to solve problems and AI isn't trustworthy either. And I think most people know that. So, like, just do it anyway, you know what I mean? Do it anyway. Like, there's people out there with cookbooks for like apple pie right now. Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's no musical note that's never been played and there's no word that's never been written. It's just about how you do it. And so, like, you know, my best advice to people is like, what are you, what are you afraid of, Right? Like, just be yourself.

Molly Ruland [00:44:11]:

I mean, if, if we can have the President in the United States right now doing and saying whatever he wants, then so can you. And not in a horrible way, but like, don't be afraid to just be yourself. Put yourself out there, get on social media, don't worry about the judgment, don't worry about what your friends, because your friends and your family are going to be the least supportive, you know what I mean? Out of like everybody, you know? So like, just do it anyway and get rid of that little voice in your head. Like I, I did this presentation once with a group of women and I said, the next time you have that little angel on your shoulder that says, like, what are you doing? Like, you know, you could get this on AI or anybody, you know, you have no business or you shouldn't be sure. I want you to imagine me on the other shoulder saying, forget that. Charge double. And you know, and it's like, you know, the good and evil, right? Except this. Except I'm the good one and the evil one is self sabotaging you and saying, well, people could get it.

Molly Ruland [00:45:01]:

I meant people can get anything they want.

Bryan McAnulty [00:45:04]:

Real quick, Brian here, you know me as the host for this podcast, but what you might not know is I'm also the founder of Heights Platform. It's an all in one platform that over 10,000 creators have used to build their online courses, communities and digital product businesses. We recently added some awesome updates to Heights AI to help you turn your idea into a viable business. Heights AI can build entire product offers, review your content, and even coach you on how to grow. You can try it for free for 30 days links in the description. Now back to the podcast. If, if I had to write a book, the title would be something Like, I do what I want and so can you. And I really, I really believe that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:45:40]:

And I really think more people should really just kind of embrace that in their business and in their lives.

Molly Ruland [00:45:47]:

People are looking for that authenticity. You know, a lot of my corporate clients are like, molly, I love you. I wish I could say all the things that you say, but I get fired. So I just live vicariously through you and, like, you know, but just be you. Like, whoever it is, be you. Because, like, you know, like my grandmother used to say, for every crooked pot, there's a crooked lid, right? And, like, you know, there's some A brand for everybody. So just be yourself and don't duplicate what you're seeing, because it's already there. You don't need a duplicate of that Box has been checked.

Molly Ruland [00:46:16]:

Go be yourself.

Bryan McAnulty [00:46:18]:

Yep, definitely. So on the show, I like to have every guest ask a question to the audience. If you could ask our audience anything, whether something you're curious about or kind of just want to get everybody thinking about, what would that be?

Molly Ruland [00:46:32]:

What do you have to lose? You know, what do you have to lose? I think, you know, that's a good question to ask yourself almost every day in this current environment that we live in. But what do you have to lose? You know, if you do it or you don't do it. If you just yourself and you go out on a limb and you try anyway. Because I know it can be very scary to do all this stuff, and the Internet doesn't make it easy. You know what I mean? Like, I posted about a dog I rescued the day after Christmas, and he passed away because he was. He was going to pass it. I was his hospice nurse, you know, and some woman didn't like my content two weeks later and then made fun of me because my dog died, right? Like, so there's no shortage of, like, I got death threats on LinkedIn last week. Like, there's no shortage of people who are going to, like, say horrible things.

Molly Ruland [00:47:20]:

But those people don't matter. They don't matter at all. And a lot of those people aren't real. And so block and delete them, Right? Your platform is not one to platform other people's hatred, right? You know, just block and delete them, but don't listen to them because they're a minority. The majority of people that are getting benefit from your courses and your content are silent. And they're not going to be loud and they're not going to comment. They're not going to, like, respond, laugh, react. They're not going to do anything, but they are seeing it, you know, I mean, I remember one time, years ago, I was out and about in a bar in D.C.

Molly Ruland [00:47:55]:

and I went up to get a shot, and the bartender said, molly Ruland. And I said, yeah. And he goes, I'm Eric. And. And I go, oh, yeah, yeah, Eric Kimmel, I recognize you from Facebook. And he goes. He goes, I have to tell you something. He goes, never stop being so loud about women's rights.

Molly Ruland [00:48:12]:

He's like, you have changed how I feel about things. Conversations I've had with my friends, things that I witness. He's like, I just want you to know that, like, you're making a difference, and those words matter. And I was just like, I'll never forget that. You know what I mean? I'll never forget that. And a couple years later, he had a young kid, and she's a daughter, and I'm like, you know what I mean? And I know he's raising her to be outspoken like that, and so. But you never know who's listening and whose life you might save or who you might be impacting, you know, because at the end of the day, if you're creating courses, it's because you want to share that information with other people and be helpful. Like, yeah, you want to make money, but, like, at the core, you're like a fixer.

Molly Ruland [00:48:55]:

You're a helper, you're a problem solver. That's why you've created this thing. You want other people to have it. Like, let that come through. And, like, don't worry if you don't always get that immediate recognition back, because most of the time, those people are going to be quiet. I have so many people in my life who've been like, I lurk on social media. I don't even comment. I don't even post.

Molly Ruland [00:49:13]:

I have no, you know, but I see your stuff and it really helps, right? So, like, just lean into it, you know, what. What do you. What have you got to lose? You know?

Bryan McAnulty [00:49:24]:

Yeah, I. I completely agree. And I think especially with something like a podcast, which typically can take a long time to grow, and before you really start acquiring an audience with it, like, even imagine, like, even so, if. If 500 people have. Have downloaded your podcast, to some people, they might say, oh, well, that's not millions. Like, social media could be. Imagine 500 people in a room. Would you spend the time to share your message to 500 people in a room? Of course you would.

Bryan McAnulty [00:49:51]:

And like you say, a lot of people are silent, actually, just you made me think about. Just last week we had a customer, he recently subscribed to Heights and he sent me an email. If you're listening to this or watching this, thank you. I really appreciate it because we got your email and. And you said that you've been listening to the show for two years. It was two years you've been listening to the show before he became a customer of ours. So you never know the. The kind of audience that you're attracting and who's actually there paying attention.

Molly Ruland [00:50:21]:

Yeah, you're a part of his life, man. He listens to your show for two years. Like he's heard your voice in his head, you know, his earphones, whatever, for a long time. You know, that's a. That's. That's respect, man. You know what I mean? That's a valuable place to be, like, for somebody to give you that much respect, their time and take time to say thank you. And that's.

Molly Ruland [00:50:40]:

That's what it's all about. You know what I mean? That's. And I'm sure that guy has told other people about you on your podcast. You know what I mean? I'm sure of it. You don't listen to something for two years and not tell other people about it. Right. And that's really. That's the magic of all of this stuff is that personal connection, you know, even if they aren't right there.

Bryan McAnulty [00:51:01]:

Yeah, definitely. Well, Molly, thanks so much for coming on the show. It was really great talking with you. Before we get going. Where else can people find you online, for sure.

Molly Ruland [00:51:09]:

So the website is heartcastmedia.com. if you are curious about my political anti fascism work, the podcast is what do we do next? Us. And I'm headed to Paris in a couple weeks to interview a whole bunch of women at a convention for women in Paris that I'm excited about. So if you're looking for some inspiration, I think that'll be a good place to find it. And yeah, you know, I love to work with people. I love to strategize with people. So if anybody's like, I can't afford you, but can I get a call with you? Like, sure, man. Book a.

Molly Ruland [00:51:41]:

Go to the website. Book a call with me. I'll do a strategy call with you. I got no problem in that. For me, it's all about people and connecting with people, having a good time, having good conversations. You know, that's what it's all about. So don't feel like you have to work with me if you, if you want to record. Reach out.

Bryan McAnulty [00:51:56]:

Awesome. Thanks so much, Molly.

Molly Ruland [00:51:58]:

Yeah, no problem. Thank you.

Bryan McAnulty [00:52:00]:

I'd like to take a moment to invite you to join our free community of over 5,000 [email protected] if you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more, check out The Heights Platform YouTube channel every Tuesday at 9am US Central. To get notified when new episodes release, join our [email protected] until then, keep learning and I'll see you in the next episode.