Bryan McAnulty [00:00:00]:

What if I told you the next time you apply for a job, a human might not even look at your resume. AI is now screening candidates, ranking applications, and deciding who moves forward before a recruiter even steps in. The rules of getting hired are changing fast, and today's guest, Katie Fortunato, is building the technology behind that shift. Katie helped co-found Hire Innovations, a company that has helped connect over 25 million people to jobs and generates more than 200 million in revenue. She launched Telebity, one of the fastest growing communities for modern leaders, and more recently created JobStream, a platform for reimagining how people discover work in the age of AI and social media. But here's what makes the conversation even more interesting. Katie believes that creators, yes, YouTubers, course creators, influencers, are becoming powerful players in how people get hired. She's building platforms where trusted recommendations can drive real career opportunities and even generate performance based income.

Bryan McAnulty [00:00:52]:

So in this episode, we're diving into how AI is reshaping hiring, what most people misunderstand about job screenings, and how creators can tap into this shift without burning out their audience.

Katie Fortunato [00:01:02]:

Do you ever hear the expression, like, early bird gets the worm? It's true with job applications. Like you want to be the first person applying in, and I guarantee you if you're sending and you nail who the hiring manager is, they will respond because they're not getting many messages like that. You're already standing out.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:18]:

Welcome to the Creator's Adventure, where we interview creators from around the world, hearing their stories about growing a business. Hey, everyone. I'm Bryan McAnulty, the founder of Heights Platform. Let's get into it. Hey, Katie, welcome to the show.

Katie Fortunato [00:01:36]:

Hey, Brian, thanks for having me.

Bryan McAnulty [00:01:39]:

First question is, what would you say is the biggest thing that either you did or doing that has helped you to achieve the freedom to do what you enjoy?

Katie Fortunato [00:01:46]:

Oh, well, I think early on in my 20s, I had this revelation that I was in pursuit of the dream job and quickly realized that the thing that I thought I wanted to be when I grew up was not the thing I wanted to be when I grew up, because I was grown up and not loving it. And what shifted for me was the mindset of it's not the dream job, it's the dream life. Because I'm a multifaceted person and I have lots of interests. I wouldn't call myself a polymath, but I do love to learn new things. So putting myself into a box of this is your dream job and this is your path, and this is the journey you're going to be on felt like suffocating to me. And I learned that about myself probably in my early 20s, and said, all right, well, I just want to. Let's just go on the first thing I like to do. Let's find a new job where it's tangential to what I wanted to do using a skill that I'm good at. And at the time it was. For me, it was event planning and it was any. All things entertainment. I used to be an actress and it was about building on things that I learned about myself. And my. My mindset really shifted. And it's not the dream job, it's the dream life.

Katie Fortunato [00:03:04]:

So whatever that means for each individual is totally different. Different careers, different gigs, different ways to patch together to make ends meet. So for me, I try to live by. By that. Have you ever heard of ikigai?

Bryan McAnulty [00:03:19]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Katie Fortunato [00:03:21]:

Ikigai is a framework that I teach kids actually, who say, like, I don't know what I want to do when I grow up or I don't know what job is for me. And it's where you think about what is your passion, what is achievable and what's. What is someone actually going to pay you for and what are you good at doing. They're three different things. When you find the. It. The like the trifecta of all of those things, when they converge. That's. That's what I mean by like dream life.

Bryan McAnulty [00:03:49]:

Yeah, you articulated that really well. And I think that is such a great point because it made me think about back, like getting out of high school and how I put so much thought into, like, what do I want to do? And I feel like I can relate to you in a bit because what I thought was my passion and the dream job at first is not what I'm doing now. As those watching can probably tell. I like music, but I'm running this software platform here now and I realized that while I love music, I love playing music, making music. What that would look like as a job in almost any case was not actually my dream life and it would kind of like box me in, as you were saying, and not being able to do some of the other things, like if I was in a band and I had to go on tour, I always have to do that. I can't go and don't have time for other things or if I'm having to produce music or something. It's just there's a lot of things where it would be actually limiting. Even though I was doing a thing that I enjoyed.

Bryan McAnulty [00:04:49]:

And so, yeah, I put, I feel like a lot of thought into it at that time in my life when I feel it was not as common for my peers to be doing the same. They were kind of just like, oh, I'll see what happens. I'll go through things. But I feel it's really valuable that I did that. And I feel like exactly what you're saying, that it's. If you go through that process, it will help lead you to the ikigai and what you're looking for.

Katie Fortunato [00:05:16]:

It sounds like it was a very organic way of finding your way.

Bryan McAnulty [00:05:20]:

Yeah, yeah, thanks. So, yeah, I'm curious because for you, you also started as an actor, producer, writer, turned into this world of building these tech talent or talent tech platforms. So when you founded Hire Innovations, what was like the problem you were trying to solve with that at the time?

Katie Fortunato [00:05:43]:

What problem I was looking at was, okay, well, advertising is one problem in a very long litany of things that these companies have problems with in their people and talent departments. So what other adjacent problems can we solve for them? And looking at what AI was doing three years ago, we said, well, what can we do? Build ourselves, innovating, like, what kind of things do we need to incubate new technologies? We need to be testing and developing and be on that cutting edge or like, how else does this company grow? And it also can be through mergers and acquisitions or strategic partnerships. And like, we just launched one with Workday, for example. Like, I look at how we grow, but how we continue to solve the problem, which is the people problem, because companies ultimately cannot grow without the right talent. I don't know if you found that in your business, Brian, but hiring is the number one challenging thing for all businesses. That's not what I think. That's a fact. And you should see the amount of money people are paying to solve those problems.

Katie Fortunato [00:06:52]:

Right. And advertising jobs is not always the way. It's, it's. It starts at the core of what is this employer? What is their employer value proposition? Like, why do people want to come and work here? And getting to that core is like, where the real work is. It's hard to unravel. Like, it's hard to fix overnight. So, yeah, I think it's the number one challenge. I mean, I'd love to hear if, if that resonates for you at all.

Katie Fortunato [00:07:19]:

It does for me. Building new teams.

Bryan McAnulty [00:07:21]:

So definitely, yeah, I think I would say, like, for those listening or watching this, if you're not ready yet to hire somebody or that doesn't that doesn't feel like where you're at yet. I would encourage you to like still pay attention here because Katie has like done so much that she's going to share a lot with you no matter what. So if you are ready to hire or thinking about this, I think you'll learn about that. I think you'll learn about just like you've been able to help connect over 25 million people to jobs. And so like, what does it take to even to grow a business like that and also about some other things that you as a creator can do to grow your own business. But back to what you're saying is definitely I've realized the importance in hiring and spending time in that. And we're a small team, we're a bootstrap company and so we have to make the right decisions in who we hire, I think. And it's like I have an example that I know talking to a friend before who's a founder, he was hiring pretty quickly and it's because he wasn't putting the effort into everything of like, what are you actually asking people to do? The, the actual listing of the job and everything and explaining it and attracting the right people and then also going through and reviewing it and making sure that the you're spending time looking through those applications, talking with the people and trying to make sure that they're the right fit before they start working.

Bryan McAnulty [00:08:50]:

And yeah, he wasn't really doing that. He kind of had the mindset that like, oh, I all I have to do is hire people and then they will fix whatever problems there are, but you have to hire the right people.

Katie Fortunato [00:09:02]:

True, it's so hard to do, but so relevant. Like the bootstrapping thing, that is the creatorpreneur way as well. And it's thinking about like, when I think about creators, it's not so different than how they're thinking about their engagement strategy with their followers or their audience. And they are the brand, you know, and that's the same with an employer. The employer is the brand and it has a direct correlation on the consumer impact as well. Who are your followers? Why are they following you? What value do you bring to them as a creator? When I think when an unlock with creators from what in us working with them with one of our companies is they get to the point of hiring and they are, they're control freaks. They are so selective and so careful about who they're bringing in as they should be. So personal.

Katie Fortunato [00:09:53]:

It's your social media channels, it's your network it's your people, their data, you know, you know how to get in touch with these people. It's a very vulnerable place to be in. And you know, those hiring decisions should be taken very seriously. I see a lot of people doing like virtual assistants with their creator businesses. And a new trend that I'm seeing, the corporate Natalie. I don't know if you follow her at all, but she's kind of like the voice of the creators in the work world. And she started a virtual assistant basically like staffing agency for influencers and creators. What I found is so interesting.

Katie Fortunato [00:10:35]:

All of the people, they have full time jobs but then they have these side hustle virtual assistant jobs and I'm just like, well that makes sense. Like maybe they're in their marketing position, their full time job, they have a few extra hours. I mean I only have time for really one job, so I don't understand it myself. But there's ways to like hire people in fractional ways where you're not like taking on so much of investing in this person, training them and then they don't work out like so I mean we're seeing that fractional kind of. I don't know what virtual assistant frankly for creators is something that I see all the time now. I don't know if you've hired one or experienced it, but they also keep.

Bryan McAnulty [00:11:22]:

Yeah, definitely, I've seen that. Yeah. And I want to touch on right before we hit record, you mentioned kind of what you saw as something kind of creators like overlook with their, their audience and their own potential with things and how they can actually generate revenue. And I think it's a challenge for creators that they've got these ideas, they're building this audience and then yeah, they are kind of unknowingly doing things where they are leaving money on the table. So can you share a little bit about that real quick? Brian here, you know me as the host for this podcast. But what you might not know is I'm also the founder of Heights Platform. It's an all in one platform that over 10,000 creators have used to build their online courses, communities and digital product businesses. We recently added some awesome updates to Heights AI to help you turn your idea into a viable business.

Bryan McAnulty [00:12:13]:

I'd say I can build entire product offers, review your content and even coach you on how to grow. You can try it for free for 30 days Links in the description. Now back to the podcast.

Katie Fortunato [00:12:23]:

Yes. So I have a friend, she is a former journalist, she worked for all several of the major networks and her craft, like you and I, Brian, was the craft, it was the artistry of being a journalist reporting on the story, an amazing ability to tell the story. Her whole career has spent building followerships for the ABCs of the world. And that's great, but, you know, her career is at the mercy of the major media company who is out there with the shareholders interest. As you know, their whole purpose is create shareholder value, and that is their core purpose. Right. These companies get views, whatever it means that we have to do to get those views. And talent looks on the outside, it looks disposable to me.

Katie Fortunato [00:13:20]:

Like how, you know, look at some of the journalists who have left their. Their anchor positions, and it's like, well, how could they do that? It's like you work your whole life to get to that level, and then what. And so I think what, what is interesting is this new wave of entrepreneurship. I like to call it creatorpreneurship, because it's taking that network, that audience, that following, that voice, that people trust that as a creator, you have built and built your whole life, and that is your network. And they follow you everywhere you go on social media. They buy the products that you recommend. That can be your empire too. And so the trend that I'm seeing is not only are journalists or creators, like, starting off on their own and creating their own businesses, I mean, we do see that the number of LLCs that have been established over the past year is at a record high.

Katie Fortunato [00:14:19]:

Interestingly, it's a lot of women as well, which tells us something else about women in the workplace.

Bryan McAnulty [00:14:27]:

But definitely, yeah, I mean, I could share real quick that, like, yeah, half of our customers are women, definitely. So it's not like it's like, dominated by men or anything like that.

Katie Fortunato [00:14:36]:

That. That's amazing. Like, the creator economy is probably 80% women the last. The women, the last I checked. So that makes perfect sense. But it's an amazing career that offers flexibility, sustainability, control, independence. And I guess the trend that we're seeing is, like, everybody's starting a newsletter. And I, I used to say that as a joke, but, like, now it's really true.

Katie Fortunato [00:15:01]:

And you see people, you know, like Joanna Stern from. She's a. A tech journalist from the Wall Street Journal, left to start her own digital business and newsletter, and she brought her whole following with her. Are they still subscribers to the Wall Street Journal? Sure, I'm sure they are. But how, how empowering to, like, take your influence and you're creating your own destiny. You're. You've got your own network now. You've got your own business that can thrive and monetize and make money.

Katie Fortunato [00:15:31]:

So, you know, we also hopped on the newsletter train. The what I've noticed of newsletters is people talk. If they're of a professional mindset of a creator, you know, they're not just pushing products, but they're talking about their careers or get ready for a day in the life of a nurse with me or get ready for work with me. They're already talking about their careers. And what we found is so many creators are like scraping the Internet for job listings and the job listings were fake lead to phantom postings on the job boards. Right now there is just a very high level of deep fake and fraud with things like bot activity and even cyber terrorists who are applying into jobs like this. This is major. And we noticed there's an easy way like people love job content because we all need a job, right? And as a creator, you can only recommend so many products and also your followers have to be able to buy the products.

Katie Fortunato [00:16:36]:

And the way they do that is they have some sense of like financial, economic stability. And right now the headlines say every day thousands of layoffs at Amazon, AI is coming for your jobs. There are no more entry level white collar positions. True, true and true. So people are living in this sense of fear and anxiety. And I think that is also fueling this next generation of creatorpreneurs where they're saying, all right, well I'm going to, I'm going to take ownership. This is going to be my business now. So I, I went on a little bit of a tangent there because all these things are interconnected.

Bryan McAnulty [00:17:22]:

Yeah, no, definitely. I think I've, I've seen through things in the media, through things in the creator business, through, through people who have traditional careers and are not entrepreneurs, that, because they have this influence that basically allows them to either have their own business or be hired by the next company because of that influence and the another company wants to take advantage of that or something in some way. But what is, is so interesting and what's got like flipped on its head in the past, I guess, few years especially is everyone says, oh, if you're an entrepreneur, that's risky. And to me, what feels risky is having a traditional job where you haven't built that audience and that following because as you said, that talent can be seen as disposable by these companies. But if you're an entrepreneur and you've built this following, you have this asset like nobody can fire you. And there's companies and People and everyone who wants to be involved. And because you have that audience, totally

Katie Fortunato [00:18:28]:

bet on yourself every time. What I always love about creatives like you, Brian, is learning those instruments is really hard work. And I'm sure you know how to play more than one and that is hard work. And if you can do that, then you can be successful at creating your own success and independence too. So. So I don't know. I, I'm, I'm really glad to see that people are having this new like entrepreneurial. What is it? Just revolution.

Katie Fortunato [00:19:01]:

Re. Inspiration.

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:04]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like with. Because of AI, it's like a, a new renaissance actually of that. The. Yeah. Individual entrepreneurs are now empowered because the limitations you had before. Well, I need to raise money, I need to be able to hire people right away. Now you have AI to help you with that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:19:25]:

And now you have social media to be able to reach not only a large number of people, but even the right people because of these algorithms and things. So I'm curious, so you have this other company, JobStream. What does a creator driven job recommendation actually look like in practice and how does that work? Can you describe more of what you were getting to there before?

Katie Fortunato [00:19:47]:

Sure. So this is a new category for creators. It's a new, I call it a new vertical of influencers. These are career creators. And what that means is two things. They've built their careers as creators. Two they are now helping others do the same and the same as in building careers. So the traditional way of finding a job is just doesn't work anymore.

Katie Fortunato [00:20:14]:

I don't know if you've tried to do that lately, but like going to a job board, applying to a job, you're not even sure is this a real company? Like even on LinkedIn, they've made it so easy that you, you can apply to any job and it doesn't matter if you have the skills or you're qualified. They've just made it so easy.

Bryan McAnulty [00:20:30]:

Yeah. Well, I can say from the, from the opposite perspective as somebody hiring. We just hired somebody recently and the landscape continues to change more and more that yes, you can apply so easily. So there's just all these applicants that it's like, I can't believe. Why would the person even like go through the trouble of clicking apply? Because this is clicking apply because there's just no relation to anything they've ever done or even seem interested in to what this career actually is. And then also, yeah, I feel like I've always been curious, like, what are the percentage of job listings out there that are even real.

Katie Fortunato [00:21:05]:

That's exactly what's happening, Brian. It's concerning employers don't know what to do about it. Job seekers don't know what to do about it. But the part that we play is making sure that we're working with employers that we're vetting, that they have real intent to hire somebody. And we know that because they're actively promoting the jobs, they're invested in the marketing behind the jobs and they really need someone to come to work. And that comes across in the job description as well. Well, so that's how we vet our exclusive job network. And then what we do is forget AI slop like we are human vetting every single link.

Katie Fortunato [00:21:44]:

And we're making sure this link is going directly to the employer's page, not to a job board. For all the reasons that you just shared is we're trying to. Let's just get directly to the source of truth. It creates a better experience for both. And it's not to say that you apply to a job and you get the job. That is, that is one piece of information in getting that job. If it's your dream job, it's good information. You read the job description you're looking for.

Katie Fortunato [00:22:13]:

Who does this job report into? Is this a new department? Is this a new customer segment that I know something about? There are clues that as a job seeker you need to look into and then use a platform like LinkedIn to figure out, do I know anybody there? Who in my personal network could introduce me to someone who works at this company? Or can I find the hiring manager on LinkedIn and send a cold email? And I guarantee you if you're sending a cold email and you nail who the hiring manager is, they will respond because they're not getting many messages like that at all. In fact, they don't even see all the people who apply. So you're already standing out. And then not only that, Brian, like, I would love to hear, like how you found your new hire. Because what is true today is referrals are the number one path of people getting hired. And so that's what JobStream helps bring access to, which is like, we're going to post the job to our network and they weren't expecting, they weren't expecting to see this job, but because I recommended it, they're going to say, oh, wow, that's. I got to trust that that's a job and I'm going to go apply to that. And we're giving the real time access to those jobs.

Katie Fortunato [00:23:23]:

Like the minute that they get published so that they can be the first in. Do you ever hear the expression like early bird gets the worm? It's true with job applications, like you want to be the first person applying in or you want to be the top 20, you will get seen. It's everyone else who doesn't. But again, I think it's like creating direct access to job opportunity. That's what creators bring now to the recruitment world through JobStream and it helps them, it helps them support their audience. Creators are already grinding to figure out, you know, what content is going to increase my engagement, thus increase the amount of brand partnership deals I get. Without the engagement, you don't get the brand partnership deals. So what we found is like job content is an amazing value add to your audience and now to your business.

Katie Fortunato [00:24:18]:

It's a new revenue stream. So it also refreshes every day. So if you're in that content grind and you get stuck on what should I post today or you know, how many times can I post my favorite hair clip before it gets stale with my audience? It's the job content is always new and always fresh.

Bryan McAnulty [00:24:43]:

Yeah. Yeah. So it's really interesting because I think what you're describing is really like a win win all around. And when I first heard of this and before talking with you, I thought like, okay, this is something that maybe this is a way that creators can generate some additional revenue outside of like sponsorships or course or product sales. But it doesn't really apply to everyone. But now I'm seeing more clearly like where it does apply. So like, let's say you are a, like I know we have course creators who are selling like how to become like a professional writer or how to become like how to deal with stakeholders in a career of like UX design. And so if that's your product, then you're trying to help people in their careers.

Bryan McAnulty [00:25:31]:

And if you can then promote a company that say like, hey, this company is looking for this like position, then you can get paid for that from JobStream. Right. And then at the same time it's not like an add to your audience because you're providing value to your audience because they may be looking for that next career. So you can actually create content that's definitely providing value to your audience while at the same time generating some extra income for you.

Katie Fortunato [00:25:58]:

It's. That is an amazing use case of a career creator who's successful on JobStream. And you know, the product that they're selling is their expertise, the digital package, the how to do this. Imagine that that client comes back and says, hey, I took your course, I did everything you suggested, I followed all the steps and I still can't find a job. Now what? And that person is going to feel better if you can say, well, I have this exclusive network of jobs that is only for my clients. And sign up for this email. I'm going to send you the jobs. They're going to be fresh and hopefully like there is another job stream for you to go and find what you're looking for and this is how I can support you.

Katie Fortunato [00:26:48]:

And it's taking that service but the going the last mile for them. We see a lot of career creators who are career executive coaches, job coaches, that kind of thing. So it's really applicable.

Bryan McAnulty [00:27:04]:

Yeah. So I'm curious about how does like JobStream's role in that actually work? Like what does the process look like? Because if I was a creator I would be concerned that, well, like are these jobs actually going to be relevant or do I have to find of the companies that are currently hiring that are relevant to my audience, what happens there?

Katie Fortunato [00:27:25]:

You know, it's funny, we had a co working session the other day and we had two types of creators. We had a bunch of creators, but there were two types on the call and one was, oh, I'm a creator and I do all my own content. I do all of the graphics, the imagery and like that's the work, man. Like I'm doing the creating. The other guy says, how can I automate this as quickly as possible to make as much money as possible? And everyone kind of went, oh. And then he goes, I'm working on this project in Ecuador. I'm just trying to buy kids, like trying to get them fresh clean water to drink. And I've noticed like this is a way for me to earn passive income while I'm over there helping.

Katie Fortunato [00:28:05]:

So everybody has their purpose for JobStream. And so my point is like, how does it work? It works if you want to be the hands on creator and design, you know, storyboards around jobs. You want to design beautiful creative that's going to convert to clicks and applies, by all means do so. And we have all the AI tools embedded to help you do that. The second is like you want the done for you version, the, the one that starts just sending job alerts to your audience for you so you don't have to curate the content yourself. We have that too. And it just depends on like what fits and what we see. A great starting point is, you know how you asked how it works.

Katie Fortunato [00:28:46]:

But like, first of all, there's like a little bit of a vetting process. Like, if you're somebody who has a following, you've got respectable content and you are professionally minded anyway. Like, you'll probably be accepted if you're already creating job content and spending hours like scraping the Internet or finding random job listings from job boards and not getting paid. Like, this is easy for you. Like, you're already creating that content, not getting paid. So that's how it works. Like, you'd come to our platform and do the same thing knowing that you've got like the trusted real link version. And then if you're someone who has a newsletter or a LinkedIn or an Instagram or a YouTube, whatever channel of choice is your preference, you can start testing the links and saying, you know, Brian, like, you shared with me that a lot of your audience or creators, they might also be really good at social media.

Katie Fortunato [00:29:38]:

They might be digital marketers. Usually those things are, you know, adjacent. You know, maybe you would pull all of the social media listings and say, here are some listings. I search for my network. Just apply here. And that's, that's the best way to get started is just like a few at a time. And then what has, what has been happening is like evolving into this do it for me newsletter concept where it's just like jobs are getting sent to your community every day.

Bryan McAnulty [00:30:08]:

I think that's really interesting because I remember back when I was before I, I had this like, software business. I was doing more of like web design and web application development. And so I'd be looking for clients to work with. Not really careers, but like clients to work with our company. And I remember there were a number of people in the space where they would have a newsletter and then as part of the value of that newsletter, they would go around and find like, so here's some potential clients or here's some potential job listings. And then that would be part of the value of receiving their newsletter. And so if you are a creator who in some way the, the, the information, the coaching, the membership, whatever you're offering, is trying to teach people of how they can find customers or careers, you might be doing something like that already. And if you're not, you could, but now you can do it easier because they can essentially partner with you guys and be able to actually, instead of spending time to add that value, they can actually just make money and add that value without having to spend the time.

Bryan McAnulty [00:31:12]:

Is that kind of the right way of thinking?

Katie Fortunato [00:31:14]:

That's the right way of thinking. And we're doing the hard vetting for you, we're checking the links. We know that they're real employers. You know, trust is, is our value proposition. And that's important because if, if you're sharing this with your audience, like we need to make sure that it's legitimate. Right. And so yeah, I think if you're already doing it, that's easy. What we've also started to see is like if you're a traditional influencer and you're on these affiliate platforms like shop my or LTK, what's happening right now? And this is February 17th, but consumer spending is down.

Katie Fortunato [00:31:49]:

We've had week over week headlines of people losing their jobs, things like interest rates. And you know what is happening around AI is creating a, an angst in people and everyone's anxious about their job security. So what's happened on anybody who's part of these affiliate programs is their spending has gone down because people are not buying as many consumer goods anymore. So when we think about JobStream, it's like jobs are the backbone to everything. A creator has to be, you know, to be able to say like, I was successful because people started buying the products that I was recommending, they trusted me. And if they're not buying products because they don't have the income, it makes it like this JobStream supports the whole ecosystem is what I'm saying. It's like you can't influence the hair clips and the lip glosses to people who don't have the income to buy them. And then we did a shocking survey that creators, we asked how much of your content is meant to give back to your followers.

Katie Fortunato [00:33:08]:

It was like in the single digits, percentage, meaning the majority, like 90, 97% of content that creators create is for their own business's benefit and not their audience's benefit. So it's one impact layer that creators have that's like, I'm going to support my audience. I want to see them succeed because when they succeed, I succeed. So it's a very purpose driven platform. And that's also why we keep, we keep it free. Like we want it to be free so that people can have this kind of access as people who are job seekers should. So that's, you know, if you're not giving back to your followers and you're asking and looking for the ways it's, it can satisfy that as well.

Bryan McAnulty [00:33:56]:

Yeah, yeah, no, well, I, I think that's so important because one of the, the reasons I think a lot of people get involved in this like info product space is because they not only want to have somewhere to make an income as entrepreneurs, but they want to have a positive impact. And I've always thought like if, if I was going to be involved with anyone who like would want to sponsor my content or something like that, like I want it to be something that I feel is truly a value to my customers or is is going to align with all of that. And I think it's important in any way in your business for that to be the case because you don't want to really put effort to it into it in the long term. Eventually people are going to burn out if all they're doing is just making this content to try to generate money or something for themselves, but not also feeling that they're making some kind of positive impact.

Katie Fortunato [00:34:48]:

Absolutely. It's. And what's like so inspiring about this next generation is. And just like looking at like the Hire Innovations, just view of who our clients are is employers are saying that the number one thing people are looking for when they want to come to work is it's not salary, it's not where you live, it's not remote versus hybrid. It's what is the social impact, what is the bigger purpose? Like what is this company contributing to the world? So as a creator, I mean, how amazing you have this opportunity to create that for yourself without having to go through the big red tape of an organization. But it's really nice that the next generation is thinking this way. I mean we all should be thinking this way, but it's going to force a lot of that kind of goodwill and positive impact. Good for business building, which is I think a wonderful thing.

Bryan McAnulty [00:35:47]:

Yeah, yeah, that's true. I'd like to talk a little bit about AI, especially like for the creators where their business is around helping others somehow either get customers or advance in their career in some way. How are companies actually using AI to like screen and select candidates? Or like in what way do you see AI being involved right now?

Katie Fortunato [00:36:11]:

From the creator's point of view or the employer's point of view?

Bryan McAnulty [00:36:14]:

From the employer's point of view, I guess just so the creator who's trying to help their own audience, like they can understand what employers are actually doing.

Katie Fortunato [00:36:23]:

Yeah, so what employers are doing with AI is using it for things like creating the job description and they're using it as a productivity hack. So creating the job description is one thing. If you're a talent acquisition manager, you may have spent hours going back and forth with your stakeholders on that. It's a huge operational piece that's lifted. As for how is AI being used in the tech stack, usually it's in the sorting. After people have already applied to the job, you can cut down the candidates from 100 people to even 85% or 90% of the qualified people. And that's like the magic of AI comes with a caveat. What's happening is we talked about AI on the job seeker side and what people are doing is vibe coding their resumes to perfectly match the job description.

Katie Fortunato [00:37:23]:

Well, guess what? The AI on the other side, the bot talking to the bot, is already eliminating all of those deep fakes. So that's not a winning strategy for anybody. But the systems are looking for it, but so are the hiring managers. The hiring managers are looking for it. AI in the hiring funnel is. This is a very challenging moment in time. I think what's, what we're seeing our clients experiencing is people who come to the interview, they get past the AI screening process, they come to the interview and AI is present there and they're answering every question with a perfectly smart ChatGPT up on the screen in the background. It barely looks like they're reading it from anything.

Katie Fortunato [00:38:07]:

And so that's happening as well. So employers are responding to that by going really, really deep on references, referrals, doing things like skills based testing. Especially if you're in a hard, skilled role, like you're in engineering or something, like you might be asked to do a code test or a test in real time. So AI is having this impact on how we're qualifying candidates and that's really what's happening. My prediction is we're going to get to a. You know when you go to the airport and you see Clear and it's like Clear sees your eyes, it's going to be that for applying to a job, but there's going to be some like blockchain track record of your track record and it's going to have everything from your digital media presence because that's the first thing people are looking at when you apply to a job, believe it or not, they go straight to your LinkedIn and then they go to your social media and then they look at your qualifications. This is not what I think this is true. So this is changing the way employers see candidates and what they're looking for are real people with the real experience they say they do.

Katie Fortunato [00:39:23]:

And I think blockchain represents a very future state of like how we can actually evaluate all kinds of job candidates.

Bryan McAnulty [00:39:32]:

Yeah, something that's actually verifiable yeah. So my experience in our last hire here is that we've had in the past like we would get thousands of applications because we, we say this is a remote role for anywhere. And so it's just too much to, to even go through. And as you said also there's value in applying early because yet probably the last few hundred applications of each role we just don't even get to see because it's just so much. But this time what we did is we had people submit a video alongside their application, just as we said, 30 seconds, just like tell us why you're interested. And I could not believe how many people you could tell are reading the script that ChatGPT told them to answer for this thing. And the applicants, hopefully they can begin to realize that if they do that, so did everybody else do the same thing? And so they're, they're saying the same thing essentially in, in their video. And the purpose of the video is to, because we don't have this blockchain solution, is to verify they are a real human and have these, these real skills or experience.

Katie Fortunato [00:40:48]:

I, I love that you brought that up if nothing else too, Brian. Like the video interview aspect weeds out anybody who's not serious about getting a job. So already you've brought your pool down to the people who are most highest intent they want to work for this position. And that is the work. Right. Finding the job is the full time job. And I think what you're doing is great. It's like the next step is the deep vetting that happens on the reference checks.

Katie Fortunato [00:41:16]:

And you know, you're not, you don't want the person who's arm's length. You want to get into like what was the client relationship like with this person or what was two steps below or two steps above this person who made an impact to the entire team. Like those are the references you want to be giving too as you're, if you're a job seeker.

Bryan McAnulty [00:41:34]:

Yeah. All right, I've got a couple like real quick questions to kind of wrap this up. So a few, few things I'm going to go through, I guess maybe three or four questions and just kind of interesting to hear. What's your, your quick take on each one of them? Um, first would be, do you think are we moving to a world where social feeds replace job boards?

Katie Fortunato [00:42:00]:

Yes, I'm building it. But more so I think. Wait, can I elaborate on this one?

Bryan McAnulty [00:42:07]:

Yes, sure.

Katie Fortunato [00:42:08]:

Okay. So here's what I think. I think, I think it's going to come down to that intent signal in a world where I can give you a database to everything and everyone easily. Like, I don't even know why we pay for this anymore. ChatGPT does it. What matters is being at the right place at the right time. If you have an intent signal on a job seeker and you've got this job that becomes available, it's a perfect match at the right opportunity, at the right place, at the right time. So that's what I think is going to happen.

Katie Fortunato [00:42:37]:

And I think that's going to happen in an environment that starts with socials but then goes into these other cloud based like contained data centers.

Bryan McAnulty [00:42:48]:

Yeah, interesting. Next is. Do you think that, do you think resumes are dead in the era of AI job screening?

Katie Fortunato [00:42:58]:

Yes. I've always thought resumes are dead. I think it's a two dimensional way to look at a candidate who is three dimensional. So I'd love to see that evolve. I'd love to see it evolve into like looking at the whole person and their skills and not just what they've done.

Bryan McAnulty [00:43:17]:

And what do you think is like the most obvious mistake that people would make when they're applying for jobs? That AI is just going to immediately filter them out.

Katie Fortunato [00:43:27]:

Most obvious mistake is making your resume and background look like it's a fit for the job. I think it's really good to express your unique experience and authentic. I think that's what employers are ultimately looking for at the end of the day.

Bryan McAnulty [00:43:44]:

And is AI making hiring more fair or more biased?

Katie Fortunato [00:43:52]:

I think it's, it's just adding more work. I, I see the bias, I see the fairness. I don't know if I have an answer on that.

Bryan McAnulty [00:44:06]:

Yeah, I guess I see it. It could go either way. It depends on maybe the, the intent of the, the company or who's hiring.

Katie Fortunato [00:44:14]:

I think that's right. I think it's making me personally as an employer not want to post any more job postings to the job boards. It's making me want to just do referral based hiring. But what I think is at the center of that is what's the authentic human connection here? And that comes down more to the vibe check than it does on what's your skills on paper.

Bryan McAnulty [00:44:40]:

Got it. So on the show, I'd like to have every guest ask a question to the audience. If you could ask our audience anything, whether something you're curious about or kind of want to get everybody thinking about, what would that be?

Katie Fortunato [00:44:55]:

What I would like to know is from the creator community is what does the creatorpreneur business look like in 10 years? And if you're somebody who is a parent, has a family, what is this? What does this job look like for the next generation? And, you know, where does one start to get experience? Because I think about how creating is. There's a whole new wave of entrepreneurs, and that's amazing. But many people who are in that position, like, already had job experience from somewhere else or some perspective. And how is the next generation going to. How are they going to thrive? How are they going to succeed?

Bryan McAnulty [00:45:44]:

Yeah, the interesting thing to think about, I think about that personally with my. My daughter. What is it going to look like for her when she grows up? I would say my answer to that right now is just that you have to learn to create. And whatever way that is, whatever way that will be, you have to become good at the skill of creating. And what that looks like 10 years from now may be different than it is now, Maybe completely different. But being able to be kind of in tune with your own imagination and express your ideas to the world is what you need to learn.

Katie Fortunato [00:46:23]:

Oh, my gosh. Does it start with your piano lessons when you're four?

Bryan McAnulty [00:46:27]:

Yeah, I think so. Cool. All right, well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Katie. Before we get going, where else can people find you online?

Katie Fortunato [00:46:38]:

Well, they can connect with me on LinkedIn. Katie Clark Fortunato. And for creators who are interested in JobStream, there's an application process, but, um, I would love for them to use your code, Brian, and the name of your podcast, and then we'll know that they're screening people who are already creators who were basically referred by you and coming. And we will make sure that they're set up with no charge or anything like that. Um, but that's. Getjobstream.com.

Bryan McAnulty [00:47:05]:

Okay, awesome. Yeah, that. That sounds great. Um, and to be clear for everybody here, like, this is not a sponsored thing. Like, we're not getting paid for that, but it sounds like that that's going to help. You know that this is a real audience of real creators.

Katie Fortunato [00:47:19]:

Oh, you've already vetted them. They're in.

Bryan McAnulty [00:47:21]:

Exactly. Cool. All right, well, Katie, thank you so much.

Katie Fortunato [00:47:25]:

Thank you, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Bryan McAnulty [00:47:27]:

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