#20: The Art of Communicating and Leading with Clarity with Dr. Michael Gerharz
Welcome to The Creator's Adventure where we interview creators from around the world, hearing their stories about growing a business.
Today we are talking with Dr. Michael Gerharz about how to think, speak, and lead with clarity so you can have the impact and influence you deserve as a creator.
Learn More About Dr. Michael Gerharz: https://michaelgerharz.com/
Bryan McAnulty: Welcome to the Creator's Adventure, where we interview Creator's from around the world, hearing their stories about growing a business. My name is Bryan McAnulty. I'm the founder of Heights Platform. And today I'm talking with Dr. Michael Gerharz about how to think, speak and lead with clarity. So you can have the impact and influence that you deserve as a.
Hey everyone. We're here today with Dr. Michael Gerharz. He helps leaders think, speak and lead with clarity so they can have the impact and influence that they deserve. He is the author of the daily blog, the art of communicating and publishes leaders, light the path podcast. Dr. Michael Gerhart has a PhD in communication systems and he is also a passionate guitarist today.
He runs an online coaching business, sells online courses and has written the book called the aha effect. Dr. Michael, welcome to the show. Welcome. Thanks for having me. So my first question for you today is if you could tell us a little bit about what you do and how you got started with your online business.
Dr Michael Gerharz: Well, as you mentioned in, in the introduction, I. Leaders think and speak with clarity. And when they do, they usually lead with clarity. How did I come to do that? Well, out of sheer frustration, as you mentioned, I've, I'm coming from a scientific background. I have PhD in communication systems and we had a lot of corporations with industry mobile operator.
And I've been to so many conference and conferences and sat in so many meetings where so many great ideas have been thrown into the trash bin because they haven't been communicated properly. That at some point I just, well, when, when looking for a better way and, and, Trying to, to come up with ways to well speak about those technical findings in that in the days back then in a way that others get as enthusiastic about them as you do, so that you get, get to master the complexity of those complex systems and boil them down to a razor sharp message and really make others see what you see so that they can be as enthusiastic as you can be.
Bryan McAnulty: Cool. So what kind of services do you offer your clients then now?
Dr Michael Gerharz: The easiest way to work with me is by, well, just, just, doing online coaching sessions, where we get to discuss and dive deep into one of your struggles. One of the areas where you feel like you've been juggling ideas for the past days, or sometimes even weeks, and now is the time to just nail them, or where you.
In the 10th revision of your landing page, and somehow get to realize that you're you, aren't really sure about what's the point. Really? What's the core message and, and you really need to nail that. And, and that's when we dig deep and, and when, when I, when we have a session and. You, I will ask you a, a lot of questions, listen carefully and, and ask all those questions that you don't ask yourself normally anymore often, because they've become too obvious because you don't dare them because you fear the answer.
And then I will push you on that and force you to actually wear your audience's glasses so that you look from their perspective because that's what counts in the end. It's only halfway there. If it's clear to you, it has to be clear for those who you communicate to.
Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, exactly. One of the things we tell people a lot, with our online courses is that when you're building an online course, what everybody wants to buy from you is not just learning how to do something.
They wanna buy that result that you're offering. So you have to be really, really clear on what is that result that you're gonna provide people. And oftentimes for a creator, they have this idea in their head that it's super clear to them, but, sometimes if they think about it and if they really go and look at that landing page or, or that marketing for their course, they aren't actually describing that result to their audience.
And they think that their audience might have the same idea in their head. They, and they may, but you have to say that very clearly to make sure.
Dr Michael Gerharz: absolutely. And there's a couple of reasons for that. I mean, as a market type, basically what you do, what you do is, sell the future. You sell better versions of your customers and, and when you manage to make that really tangible, you are going to resonate very strongly with them, but there's a couple.
Well, I I'd like to call them universal forces that, that, that, keep you from doing that. One of those is the curse of knowledge where, which, which basically says that the more you know about something, the harder it gets to speak about that in simple terms and the things that are clear to you. So when you speak about the methods that you apply or that the, the, the, the, the techniques that you teach your students, it's totally clear what they.
By applying that, but the, your customers, when visiting your landing page, they are in a position to make that leap yet you need to lead them there.
Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, I like that. So who would you say your clients typically are? Or in other words, like what are the, the kind of people that come to you? Whether the problems that they have that they're solving when trying to solve when they get in touch?
Dr Michael Gerharz: That's actually a pretty interesting question because, there actually is no, no specific industry where they're coming from nor in, in a business size. So I have clients from virtually any industry and from virtually any business size, what unites them is that their desire to do better. So they, they try to make better products or better courses, or even build better companies.
And. So, so when they do, what's the reason that they reach out, that's a, that's a valid question. I mean, have you ever been in that situation where you have that? Well moment of, well, a brilliant idea that that strikes you and that, that leaves you really stoked and you expand your whole day thinking about nothing else, but that idea, and you try to come up with ways to make that happen, and then you manage to make it happen.
And you run to someone to tell them about. only that their reaction is a blank stare because they totally didn't get you because you were so well up onto all places that they didn't get the point or you failed to really take their perspective. That's when they reach out. So when they have, when you have sort of an important story to share something that's really near and dear to your heart, that probably even has the potential of changing the world.
But you struggle to find the words to make that happen. I will help you with that and find you find with you the words that make others, see what you see.
Bryan McAnulty: Great. I like that. So we noticed you also have an online course that you've created, which helps people find clarity in their life and business.
Can you tell us a little bit more about this course and maybe also just explaining further this concept of clarity.
Dr Michael Gerharz: Yeah, the, the course is called crack the clarity code. And it turns out that the code itself, is pretty simple. It's basically, the same process that I use myself when I try to help my clients and, and, the. I've basically tried to laid out the process that helps you, to, to find that clarity.
It's a five step process that takes you from first reflect about what matters most about your idea. Then second strip the non-essential bits, third focus from the right perspective, fourth, refine your language so that you can fifth boost and amplify your message and get the impact that your idea deserves.
And, and one of the important. bits about that piece is about that course is that I've deliberately slowed it down because one thing that easily happens when you walk through an online course is that you go through that too quickly. And that's especially damaging when you're looking for clarity, because, what you don't want is to go for the first idea, because the first idea is often not the clearest idea.
So the course is specifically designed to get you. That first idea. So to take your time and really nudge you to think deeper, because that's what, what, what's the core difference when we, when we see those charismatic leaders who, who seem to just magically speak with, with clarity and be, seem to be those nature, born talents, I don't believe that's true.
They. More talented. They are just more rigorous in their thinking. They think things through and that takes time. And that's the reason why I deliberately, just drip by drip, let, let the lessons, flow so that you cannot accelerate the process, but have to think things through.
Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, I like that. I think definitely.
almost any kind of creative process, and this is one that it takes time to reflect and think about that. And so even if you have all the answers, it doesn't mean that necessarily you can just instantly do it.
Dr Michael Gerharz: Yeah. And then the second component is once you've done that clarity really takes courage, clarity in a way means making decisions, deciding on the things that are Aren.
Obvious. And aren't easy so that you can decide that this is the path I'm on, and these are just distractions. And that you can really focus on the core message that you put on your landing page, or that you tell in your keynote speech, because if you don't decide, someone else will decide for you and you might not like their choice.
Bryan McAnulty: Interesting. So I noticed you mentioned a couple things you mentioned. Like this idea of the focus and everything you mentioned about how people will have to find maybe certain things they have to take out that aren't important. What are like some common mistakes or, or examples of that that you could give, or like somebody who has something that they need to take out.
That's, that's detracting from that main focus.
Dr Michael Gerharz: Yeah, I mean it's totally relatable. Right. When we, when we care for something, when we are really passionate about something and we, we, we are good at that thing precisely because we care for all the details we care for every pixel and for every comma that we put into our text.
And then at the moment that we have to speak to an audience. Which doesn't have that passion, at least at the moment that you start speaking at which doesn't invest the time to appreciate that amount of detail, you just have to focus. You have to let go of the details and that hurts because these details have become near and dear to your heart.
It's what you spend your day in. So letting go of those details often hurts. those who are really expert in their field. But again, if you don't find the courage. to cut to the core, someone else from your audience, they will just pick something and it might not just be what, what you appreciate them to take away.
It might be even something like, well, that was totally overwhelming. I, I don't know even where, where it's leading. Mm-hmm so, I'm just going to give up and that's certainly the worst outcome, but if you, if you find that courage, if you really commit to this is going to. This is going to be the destination where I'm leading my audience.
Then you can design your communication, be it a landing page, a podcast interview, or, a keynote speech, a YouTube video. Then you can design that communication in a way that it leads there comfortably and confidently and unmistakably.
Bryan McAnulty: I like that. That's a really interesting way of of putting it because I think Creator's of all types.
Definitely struggle. Having this passion and, and finding a way to be comfortable with imperfection. I know it's something that we try to encourage course Creator's and all of our customers to find a way to launch your product, whatever that is. Cuz that's the biggest reason people are failing that they're, they're not actually getting something out there whether they think it's not done yet or some kind of imperfections and something.
I struggle myself with as a business owner, just thinking like, oh, well I wish we could do this or that and, and make something better. Absolutely. Definitely. I think I'm a perfectionist, like coming from a background of like, not only the, like the business and the software, but from a design perspective too.
And especially even hearing, if I hear some feedback from somebody else who does share that same passion and they say, Hey, well, I think this part could be, could be better or something. And in my head, I'm like, yeah, I know I really, I really want it to be, but I like the way that your kind of distilling that into how important it is to be able to get away from that.
When you are first communicating with your audience, Because, yeah, exactly. There's things that they may take away from it that are important to you. But maybe they're not the important key part and you don't want that to be the thing they're left with and arrest to go over their head.
Dr Michael Gerharz: I think there's a crucial distinction here to make.
It it's one thing to care for your cause. For example, to build the best online course platform in your case, or to build the best course on, on how to deliver healthy, alive, it it's one thing to care for the cause, but it's a. Somewhat different thing to care for the change to actually make that change happen.
So to get people, to take that course, to get people, to, to bring their courses on your platform. Uh, and, and that really helps because that, that helps you let go of some of the things that you care about, but that are not that important for the people who, who take your who, who, who buy your products or buy your courses.
And then you can. take it step by step. Spark their interest first. And once you have that, then you can give them and feed them the details and feed them more information because that's, once they are passionate about that, they are going to want that to from, from you. But they're probably not in the, in the beginning not to start.
Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, exactly. So it's not that you're, you're learning to, to not care about some part of your business. It's actually that you're. To care for the right thing, which in this case is that change that you want to help the person make so that they can move to the next step. Because if you think about all the different pieces as a, as a business owner, as a creator, that's what you should care about, even though it might feel difficult in the beginning.
That's what you should care about because what you wanna do is, is give that person a great result. And so in order to do that, the first step is they need to be able to recognize what you can offer and then make that change. And that shift into becoming a customer.
Dr Michael Gerharz: Yeah, that's a great way of putting it.
If you care for the, for the result, let's say you're doing a photography course and you're. Teaching them about lighting and there's certainly a right way to do lighting and, and all the, those nitty bitty and gritty details to, to, to look for in the shadows in your face or something like that. But something who's just someone who's just starting out, they're going to be overwhelmed.
So it might just be better to feed them piece by piece so that in the end you've told them everything, but just in the right order have, have them have them become passionate first and. Teach them the whole thing.
Bryan McAnulty: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. We, we tend to tell people that it's better to make your content, your lessons on the shorter side, rather than like a, this two hour long lecture, because while you could go and talk about something for so long, you wanna break things down into these digestible bits for people.
And that I like the way that you're putting it, that, you're, you're leading them into becoming as passionate as you are. Yeah. Well, so, and, and yeah, go ahead.
Dr Michael Gerharz: Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, short definitely is also so important because I mean, we are, we are, we're competing with Netflix in a way, right?
Exactly. Yeah. When you're doing online courses, people are just, just as quick on the next Netflix show than they are in, in, in watching your next episode. And so if, if your content is just too long, I in, in the sense that you can't manage to, to hold the tension high enough for that extended amount of time, then they're going to switch to Netflix where they, they are feed with, with that tension all the way through the show.
It's not to dismiss the possibility. So if you manage to, to spark that interest and to, to grab their attention and hold it for that amount of time, then brilliant, then do that go for that. But it's just that it's hard because you don't have the same budget as Netflix has.
Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, exactly. Like your, your job as a creator is, is not really to be an entertainer.
If you're trying to teach somebody something, but you still have to keep in mind that at some level, your content has to be able to hold people's attention. Because yeah, in the exact example you're giving, you don't want it to be, so, so bad at holding their attention that they say I'm gonna go to Netflix and watch something that I'm interested in.
I like that. So how can leaders and business owners gain the trust of their audience then?
Dr Michael Gerharz: First and for first and foremost, I think it's important to tell a true story. I mean, it's really easy to speak with clarity when you don't care about the truth. That's what bullshitters do. And, and, those sneaky sales people do all the time, who are all only in for the deal and who only want to get the deal from you and don't care about what happens after for them.
The deal is sort of the end of the story. If you want to build a trusted relationship, I think the opposite is a way better posture to regard the deal as the beginning of the story. It's the beginning of the relationship, the beginning, the, the moment where you can prove that the story that you were telling is actually truthful.
And then that allows your idea to spread. And again, if you, if you start from that perspective, if you. In a way helps you to build better products, because well, it, it helps you to come up. If, if you start from, from the goal that you want to tell a true story about change, that actually helps your customer, then you need to build a product that enables that change.
And you're going to be able to ask the questions that lead you there. And once you arrive. You're going to be much more confident telling them because you know that your product actually delivers on those promises, which leads to a way more authentic way of speaking. You don't have to pretend to be the star of the show.
You don't even have to be the star of the show because you can hand that. roll over to your client. Who's going to be the star of the show because their life is actually going to be improved by using your product. And so all you need to do is tell a true story about it that you really care about and deeply believe in.
Bryan McAnulty: Yeah. One of the things we do with our business is to try to build as much as we can our software in a way that can help facilitate a result for people's customer. because I completely agree that the getting them as a customer, that's the introduction to the story. And if you care about what you're doing as a creator, and even, even if you don't and you just care about the business and making money, you should still care about getting that result for your customer, because then that's going to lead them.
Not only to, to get the result, be happy with your product, leave your review or something like that, but also leave them where they're going to purchase more from you in the future. So you, you don't wanna design your, your business around something where somebody buys something from WEU once because you, you trick them and then it's all over.
You, you wanna think of that as the, the start of your story that you're bringing this customer into and they can continue from there.
Dr Michael Gerharz: And it's making things so much easier. I, I like to, to, to compare the other approach, tho those trickster. To, to Lucy, who always, who keeps on tricking Charlie brown to kick the football and, and every single time, he falls for it and, and every single time, it's been just a trick.
But that also means that every single time she she's got to try harder because Charlie brown has all those experiences and he knows that he's been tricked. The job of, of the Lucy approach of selling is going to be ever harder. It's going to increase in, in, in effort to, to ever come up with shinier promises and bolder promises.
Whereas when you do work that actually delivers, the result actually provides the satisfaction. Your job is going to become easier with every sale you make and every iteration of your product that you.
Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, exactly. So our audiences, mostly online course Creator's coaches, things like that. If you could suggest something to them, in terms of finding clarity, improving their messaging, what would that be as like a general guidance
Dr Michael Gerharz: to work from your audience's curiosity? When we are expert at something we're often. Intrigued to tell everything that we know to throw at them, everything that we know to, to, to, to get everything out, as fast as possible, but that's often going to overwhelm us. And then what often happens, what I often observe is, that when you write everything down that you could say into, in your course, you quickly discover that that's.
Maybe a little bit too much for the course, it's going to overwhelm your, so you're going to cut something out only to discover that. Well, it's still a lot, which makes sense, because if you're passionate about something, there's always going to be more things to say than you've got time to say them. And so I believe that a better approach is to do, to use what you suggested to start from the result to start from what change am I trying to affect with that course?
and then to ask, okay. Now if that's where I want to lead them. Where are they starting from? And then to bridge that gap by asking one question at a time. So if that's the journey that I'm taking them on, what's the first and most important thing that they need to know to follow me along that journey.
And that's only one thing that's not five things or 10 details. It's one thing, one question that's most pressing to them. And when they have an answer to that, they're going to want to know more and they might have a second question. And that question leads you. to, to, drag them down that, that rabbit hole, drag them ever deeper into the forest.
So you asked yourself, what's the thing that my audience wants to know next. What's the most pressing thing that's on. That's in, that's in their minds to, to get an answer for, and that's how you, how you can, can. Hold your, the attention of your audience, even for, for a very long time, without them even noticing, because you feed them exactly what, what they wanna know it in a way you use the same techno technique that, that Hollywood movies do they make sure that you want to know what happens next before they tell you.
And that's sort of what, what, what helps in teaching? Especially complex things as well, make sure that your audience wants to know something before you give it to them, but make it only one thing. And then the next thing, and then the next thing,
Bryan McAnulty: that's great advice. We've noticed also in looking at your site and your course that you have a, do the work money back guarantee for your course.
I thought this was interesting to bring up because we get questions a lot about let structure a refund policy or. Something like that. And people are concerned about like, is, is it safe for me as a creator to offer like a money back guarantee? So can you explain a little bit about how this policy works and why you decided to offer it?
Dr Michael Gerharz: Well actually I'm deeply convinced about my pro process. I, I believe that once you you've gone through, through the process, you're not going to want a refund. But of course the magic is in doing the work. It's not just, I mean, I I'd be lying if I, if I, if I said that there's any secret in there, people have been struggling with clarity and finding solutions to, to find clarity, since forever, since we're telling stories.
And so. Everything that that's in that course you can find somewhere else. So, and probably most of the things that I'm teaching you, you have already heard at some place or another in one way or another. So there's nothing, there's really nothing groundbreaking in, in there. In part, because well, Finding clarity is just rigorous thinking and you need to do the work.
And I'm deeply convinced that if you do the work, if you really go through the process, then you are going to be satisfied with the result you are going to end up with the clarity that you seek. So I'm happy to offer you, you a refund that when you actually have gone through the process and you show me that proof that you actually, did the prompts and you, you you've thought it through.
And you've, you've went through that process and you're still unsatisfied, which I find highly unlikely and which never happened until now. Then I'm happy to provide you a full refund then that might just be not for. Yeah.
Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, I like that. And, yeah, I have this, the same kind of way of thinking. I think that's a really good approach for most Creator's.
If you believe in, in what you created, and you really believe that when the person puts in the work that they're going to get, that result that they're after, why not just make a guarantee like that and give everyone a peace of mind, to show how much you really believe in your own product.
Yeah. Right. Great. I wanna shift gears a little bit. I noticed. That also we mentioned about how you're a passionate guitarist what kind of music are you into cuz I'm a guitarist as well.
Dr Michael Gerharz: Oh, that's interesting. Well I started out, playing classical guitar and I've, I've had, well when, in a way through hell with my teacher who really.
Forced me to, to use proper technique and, and, and look at my posture and then hold my fingers. Right. And I hated him for that. But it proved really beneficial when I shifted gears. So at, at some point when I was a teenager, of course I wanted to, to play the electric guitar and I, played, and I switched to rock music and then jazz music, fusion music, where it proved very helpful to, to have gone through that school.
And there's really. One lesson that, that, that teacher hammered on me that has really proven very valuable in my professional career. Afterwards, 1, 1, 1 thing that he kept hammering on me was that in order to play fast, you gotta practice slowly. because what happens when you play too fast, too soon is that you practice inaccuracies and you turn inaccuracy into muscle memory and getting rid of those inaccuracies will take you way longer than it would have taken you to.
Go it step by step increasing the speed until you are actually at the right moment for that speed. And I feel like the same is true. When, when, when looking at communication, when, when you are, when you're going to moving too fast and throwing your messages out there without having it thought through, without the clarity that this is really your message, you're probably.
Uh, going to suffer a lot of setbacks while when you've real, when you're really comfortable. That, and that, that this is my that's, this is my path. This is my message. Then you're going to travel much faster.
Bryan McAnulty: Yeah. Uh, definitely. I, I feel as well that there's some Some lessons in, in music and things that I've carried into business as well.
I have I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but what kind of music did you play? I'm mostly into to rock modern rock music, but I got a, a Strandberg here next to me on my desk at all times. Not sure if you're familiar with these guys. Wow. So Swedish company of these really lightweight headless guitars, that have really great sound.
They have, Like a fan frets, a very interesting neck shape and everything. And uh, really a joy to play. How much
Dr Michael Gerharz: do you get to play still? What was that? Do you have, do you find time
Bryan McAnulty: once in a while, that's keep it near my desk among running your, give myself some time to, to play it. But yeah, exactly.
Definitely. Uh, definitely. So my next question for you is you wrote the book, the aha effect. Can you tell us a little bit about this book? What inspired you to write it? How can it help people and what actually is the aha effect?
Dr Michael Gerharz: Yeah. Yeah. Well, well, first of all, it's a German book. It hasn't been translated to English.
Unfortunately, but, but I think the lessons of the book are still valuable and, the core premise of the book is. I feel that there's a lot of wrongdoing in the coaching sphere regarding communication and marketing. That way too much emphasis is put on the wow effect on putting on a great show, putting yourself on the heroes podium and shining a bright light upon yourself and wowing your audience.
but I tend to believe that a wow effect can never be a means to an end, but only lead to something more profound, which I like to call the aha effect. It, it it's perfectly okay to grab your attention that your audience's attention with a wow effect. But then if you don't lead them to, to meaningful place, what uses it?
I mean, you don't want them to, after your, after they've seen your page or they've seen listened to your talk, you don't want them to. well, what a great show that's been or what a technical feast for webpage is, you want them to say, well, what a great idea that is? And so you need them to, you need to lead them towards that aha effect as I call it.
And so the book walks you through a number of questions that, that help you find that place, the place where well, everything sort of fits together where, where you have. An emotional appeal to your audience, but also giving them all the, the rational reasons for why this is actually a good choice and how to, how to lead them to that place in a meaningful way.
So that they're actually wanting to follow you along that path.
Bryan McAnulty: Yeah, I like that. I think, I think that is something that might be overlooked by people too, because it's so common with online marketers to focus on that, that wow. And attention grabbing, but, Uh, yes, that might be necessary at some point to, to get the person interested.
But then after that, it doesn't actually do anything unless you can bring them to this
Dr Michael Gerharz: aha moment. And it's also an unfortunate outcome because a lot of Creator's, who love what they do, who care for what they do. They don't actually like the spotlight. They feel uncomfortable taking the spotlight.
But, but the, the irony is that it turns out that the audience doesn't want you to be in the spotlight either. They, they, they want to take the spotlight. You you're solving their problems and everyone's the hero of their own lives. They're not showing up for, to cheer for you. They want you to cheer for me.
They want you to help me. Become a better cook, become a better guitarist, become, live a healthier lifestyle to finally manage, to run a marathon, whatever, whatever your creation is about. They want you to cheer for, for them so that they actually take the heroes podium of finally having, having managed to run that marathon.
Finally, having managed to place their way to heaven or whatever it is that, that, that your. Strive strives for, but that's sort of the irony of, of all that wowing and, and, and advice that we find in the online world.
Bryan McAnulty: Yeah. That's a great way to put it. I hope that I hope that this can inspire some people who are concerned about that concerned that maybe they have to, to wow people all the time or, or become this this kind of internet marketer that they might have seen somewhere else online, and inspire them to, to focus on what they do and enjoy as a creator.
So my next question is that every show we like to have each of our guests ask a question to our audience. So if you could ask anything from our audience, anything you wanna know to have our audience answer, what would that be?
Dr Michael Gerharz: Yeah. I mean, your audience. Is mainly Creator's. So you're, you're doing important stuff and you're, you're probably very good at what you do. And it's easy to, to, to, to sort of fall into the trap of wanting to convey everything and, and wanting to be known for a lot of things. I, but, but I'd like to challenge you, with granting you a free wish.
So suppose I give you a, a free wish where you can get to be. as the premier resource worldwide for one thing, but one thing only, what would that be? What would you want to be known for?
Bryan McAnulty: That's a, a awesome question. I think that's a really good way to think about it. Especially if you feel that you're struggling with focus as a creator, pick, pick that one thing I like.
All right. That was all the questions I have for you today. But before we get going, where else can people find you?
Dr Michael Gerharz: Well, the, the easiest place is certainly my website, Michael gerhardts.com. That's G E R H a R Z one word Michael gerhardts.com. And there, you can find both the block. The art of communicating, where I publish with daily thoughts on, on, on communication and the podcast, which is very different from this one.
It's a very tight format, two, just two minutes, twice a week where it just give some very short, short insights into, into how to, to communicate with more clarity. And of course, all the other things that we mentioned, like the online course and my, my coaching offering. So just visit my website. I'm I, I suppose that you put it in the show notes.
And that's the easiest place. And of course, any, any social media platform I'm happy to connect with you just reach out. Awesome.
Bryan McAnulty: Well, thank you, Dr. Michael, for coming on the show.
Dr Michael Gerharz: It was a pleasure. Thanks, Bryan. Great conversation.
Bryan McAnulty: If you enjoyed this interview and want the chance to ask questions to our guests live tune in on Tuesdays when new episodes premier on the Heights Platform, Facebook page, to learn more about the show and get notified when new episodes release, check out the Creator's Adventure dot com until then keep learning and I'll see you in the next episode.